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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:12 pm

Stag95 wrote:
Conker wrote:
Cleveland_Stag wrote:
Conker wrote:Personally think we need a striker and a CB, and Gordon is one I would not mind going the other way. Got enough options in his position.


Even if you don’t rate him, we literally don’t have any other natural right wing backs.


The ‘unnatural’ wing backs will all do better than him for me, he’s not going to be here next season anyway.

Lots of absolutes there. He’s clearly our best RWB. I don’t know how you could have watched him lasy night and thought he didn’t have a great game.


Totally disagree with that and it’s far from obvious to me.

My main gripe with him is that he has little ability with his left foot and rarely uses it. When he receives the ball he invariably takes it with his right foot, so unless the ball is in front of him he naturally turns to his left to keep the ball on his right. This means he actually turns backwards and any pace in the move is lost. It gives opponents the time to get back into shape and close him down. If he took the ball with his left and pushed it forward he would have much more space and time to get his crosses in which can only improve their quality.

He’s not the best defensively but that wouldn’t matter as much if he improved his quality further forward as opponents wouldn’t be so keen to push on.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby MTFCMusings » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:19 pm

With the wing back system, they have to be more capable as attackers than defenders IMO, especially given the first choice front three are all technical types rather than goal getters.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Amber Andy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:31 pm

James wrote:Hewitt is almost a perfect wing back in my opinion. Decent enough going forward, gets up and down the pitch and is better defensively than Gordon.

I like Gordon, but when he plays he does make us lose a bit of solidity at the back.
I disagree I think Hewitt is below league two standard.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Rob » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:09 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
Stag95 wrote:
Conker wrote:
Cleveland_Stag wrote:
Conker wrote:Personally think we need a striker and a CB, and Gordon is one I would not mind going the other way. Got enough options in his position.


Even if you don’t rate him, we literally don’t have any other natural right wing backs.


The ‘unnatural’ wing backs will all do better than him for me, he’s not going to be here next season anyway.

Lots of absolutes there. He’s clearly our best RWB. I don’t know how you could have watched him lasy night and thought he didn’t have a great game.


Totally disagree with that and it’s far from obvious to me.

My main gripe with him is that he has little ability with his left foot and rarely uses it. When he receives the ball he invariably takes it with his right foot, so unless the ball is in front of him he naturally turns to his left to keep the ball on his right. This means he actually turns backwards and any pace in the move is lost. It gives opponents the time to get back into shape and close him down. If he took the ball with his left and pushed it forward he would have much more space and time to get his crosses in which can only improve their quality.

He’s not the best defensively but that wouldn’t matter as much if he improved his quality further forward as opponents wouldn’t be so keen to push on.


I know you don't rate him, but surely you must concede he had a decent game last night?

As for Hewitt being below League 2 standard Andy, I have no words, just this :lol:
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:38 pm

Even if you don’t rate him, we literally don’t have any other natural right wing backs.[/quote]

The ‘unnatural’ wing backs will all do better than him for me, he’s not going to be here next season anyway.[/quote]
Lots of absolutes there. He’s clearly our best RWB. I don’t know how you could have watched him lasy night and thought he didn’t have a great game.[/quote]

Totally disagree with that and it’s far from obvious to me.

My main gripe with him is that he has little ability with his left foot and rarely uses it. When he receives the ball he invariably takes it with his right foot, so unless the ball is in front of him he naturally turns to his left to keep the ball on his right. This means he actually turns backwards and any pace in the move is lost. It gives opponents the time to get back into shape and close him down. If he took the ball with his left and pushed it forward he would have much more space and time to get his crosses in which can only improve their quality.

He’s not the best defensively but that wouldn’t matter as much if he improved his quality further forward as opponents wouldn’t be so keen to push on.[/quote]

I know you don't rate him, but surely you must concede he had a decent game last night?

As for Hewitt being below League 2 standard Andy, I have no words, just this :lol:[/quote]

He had a reasonable game Rob but he promises so much more which I just don’t think he actually has in his locker. I just look at what’s required for a top three team and don’t think he fits into one.

I honestly think Hewitt is the better of the two over all and that’s where I would play him. I don’t think we’ve seen the best of Hewitt as he covers so much for the centre halves when we need a degree of speed. He’s not as fast as Gordon but reads the game much better and is more reliable.

If we get a reasonable centre half it will be amazing how much Hewitt improves.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Amber Andy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:44 pm

Was in two recent relegated teams to National League. There is a reason for that. I think that is his standard. Gets outpaced when playing fullback and his heading ability not good enough for a League Two centre half.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby daddycool » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:02 pm

Amber Andy wrote:Was in two recent relegated teams to National League. There is a reason for that. I think that is his standard. Gets outpaced when playing fullback and his heading ability not good enough for a League Two centre half.
I agree with Andy , I’ve seen nothing in him that takes him above average.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Rob » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:05 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Even if you don’t rate him, we literally don’t have any other natural right wing backs.


The ‘unnatural’ wing backs will all do better than him for me, he’s not going to be here next season anyway.[/quote]
Lots of absolutes there. He’s clearly our best RWB. I don’t know how you could have watched him lasy night and thought he didn’t have a great game.[/quote]

Totally disagree with that and it’s far from obvious to me.

My main gripe with him is that he has little ability with his left foot and rarely uses it. When he receives the ball he invariably takes it with his right foot, so unless the ball is in front of him he naturally turns to his left to keep the ball on his right. This means he actually turns backwards and any pace in the move is lost. It gives opponents the time to get back into shape and close him down. If he took the ball with his left and pushed it forward he would have much more space and time to get his crosses in which can only improve their quality.

He’s not the best defensively but that wouldn’t matter as much if he improved his quality further forward as opponents wouldn’t be so keen to push on.[/quote]

I know you don't rate him, but surely you must concede he had a decent game last night?

As for Hewitt being below League 2 standard Andy, I have no words, just this :lol:[/quote]

He had a reasonable game Rob but he promises so much more which I just don’t think he actually has in his locker. I just look at what’s required for a top three team and don’t think he fits into one.

I honestly think Hewitt is the better of the two over all and that’s where I would play him. I don’t think we’ve seen the best of Hewitt as he covers so much for the centre halves when we need a degree of speed. He’s not as fast as Gordon but reads the game much better and is more reliable.

If we get a reasonable centre half it will be amazing how much Hewitt improves.[/quote]

Yes, I agree. I think Gordon could be used when we need a more attacking threat as he is quick, but of the two I'd pick Hewitt to start.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Ralphy » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:14 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:
Elkesley Stag wrote:
Jamie wrote:
bobbystagsfan wrote:Got to love Lapslie, that sprint he did to tackle their player when he was essentially one on one was class. I know it's such a basic thing in football but you love to see that determination and effort. Was unlucky to not score too. Could be in for a start on Saturday, Gordon and laps were great tonight.


Laps was my motm tonight,, worked his backside off throughout. Mecca a close 2nd.

Can't agree in Gordon, he doesn't do it for me. First game back so maybe needs time but he still can't beat a man,, can't cross and is positionally weak. That said, I'd still sooner have him at RWB than Bowery or Akins.


Gordon skinned for their first goal and nowhere near making a challenge on the scorer of the second . O'tooles reaction towards Gordon will be the same as Cloughs . Look decent going forward but does not get back anywhere near quick enough to defend .


Gordon didn’t get skinned for the first goal. His positioning can be questioned, not sure why he felt the need to tuck in when he did. Macca and Hewitt got skinned for the second goal but no mention.


Doesn’t fit the narrative though Musings, some on here have to bang the drum or cry until proven right!!
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Stag95 » Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:40 pm

Don’t understand the love-in with Hewitt. He’s a decent squad option for us to have but I don’t think he’s good enough to be first choice at CB or RWB.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby broomo » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:13 pm

I thought Kellan was ok. Showed a couple of flashes of genuine quality, but....

For those who have access to watch the game back, watch it focussing only on him.

Count the number of crossing opportunities, especially those with time and space. Then count the number of times his crosses found a team mate or even won us a corner.

He's maybe unlucky with a few and they're certainly not awful crosses but very few hit the mark spot on.

He just needs to improve that side of his game, even slightly to be a really strong option at wing back. To be fair he won't be up against quality teams like Derby every week.

He was caught out of position a couple of times but the role he's being asked to play makes that inevitable.

I think he did more than enough to stay in the side for the Orient game and it was lovely to see him last the 90 after having a tough time of it and working so hard to get back.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby ST4GS » Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:18 pm

broomo wrote:I thought Kellan was ok. Showed a couple of flashes of genuine quality, but....

For those who have access to watch the game back, watch it focussing only on him.

Count the number of crossing opportunities, especially those with time and space. Then count the number of times his crosses found a team mate or even won us a corner.

He's maybe unlucky with a few and they're certainly not awful crosses but very few hit the mark spot on.

He just needs to improve that side of his game, even slightly to be a really strong option at wing back. To be fair he won't be up against quality teams like Derby every week.

He was caught out of position a couple of times but the role he's being asked to play makes that inevitable.

I think he did more than enough to stay in the side for the Orient game and it was lovely to see him last the 90 after having a tough time of it and working so hard to get back.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Jamie » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:32 am

broomo wrote:I thought Kellan was ok. Showed a couple of flashes of genuine quality, but....

For those who have access to watch the game back, watch it focussing only on him.

Count the number of crossing opportunities, especially those with time and space. Then count the number of times his crosses found a team mate or even won us a corner.

He's maybe unlucky with a few and they're certainly not awful crosses but very few hit the mark spot on.

He just needs to improve that side of his game, even slightly to be a really strong option at wing back. To be fair he won't be up against quality teams like Derby every week.

He was caught out of position a couple of times but the role he's being asked to play makes that inevitable.

I think he did more than enough to stay in the side for the Orient game and it was lovely to see him last the 90 after having a tough time of it and working so hard to get back.


So in summary... can't beat a man, can't cross, can't defend and (until now) can't stay fit.. Yet some how did more that enough to keep his place? Very odd.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby broomo » Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:43 am

Jamie wrote:
broomo wrote:I thought Kellan was ok. Showed a couple of flashes of genuine quality, but....

For those who have access to watch the game back, watch it focussing only on him.

Count the number of crossing opportunities, especially those with time and space. Then count the number of times his crosses found a team mate or even won us a corner.

He's maybe unlucky with a few and they're certainly not awful crosses but very few hit the mark spot on.

He just needs to improve that side of his game, even slightly to be a really strong option at wing back. To be fair he won't be up against quality teams like Derby every week.

He was caught out of position a couple of times but the role he's being asked to play makes that inevitable.

I think he did more than enough to stay in the side for the Orient game and it was lovely to see him last the 90 after having a tough time of it and working so hard to get back.


So in summary... can't beat a man, can't cross, can't defend and (until now) can't stay fit.. Yet some how did more that enough to keep his place? Very odd.


Where did I say he can't beat a man or can't defend?

That may be your "very odd" summary but it's not mine.

As I said, if he can even slightly improve his final ball, he'll be a real asset.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Big yella » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:04 am

broomo wrote:
Jamie wrote:
broomo wrote:I thought Kellan was ok. Showed a couple of flashes of genuine quality, but....

For those who have access to watch the game back, watch it focussing only on him.

Count the number of crossing opportunities, especially those with time and space. Then count the number of times his crosses found a team mate or even won us a corner.

He's maybe unlucky with a few and they're certainly not awful crosses but very few hit the mark spot on.

He just needs to improve that side of his game, even slightly to be a really strong option at wing back. To be fair he won't be up against quality teams like Derby every week.

He was caught out of position a couple of times but the role he's being asked to play makes that inevitable.

I think he did more than enough to stay in the side for the Orient game and it was lovely to see him last the 90 after having a tough time of it and working so hard to get back.


So in summary... can't beat a man, can't cross, can't defend and (until now) can't stay fit.. Yet some how did more that enough to keep his place? Very odd.


Where did I say he can't beat a man or can't defend?

That may be your "very odd" summary but it's not mine.

As I said, if he can even slightly improve his final ball, he'll be a real asset.

Agree with just about all of that. I would keep him behind every day with a youth team full back and striker and tell him he can go home when he’s hit the striker with a cross ten times.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:36 am

Amber Andy wrote:I disagree I think Hewitt is below league two standard.


Elliott Hewitt has just made 40(3) league starts for a team that made the League 2 Play Off Final. He's comfortably League 2 standard and would have no problems signing for another League 2 club. He's also one of the fittest players in our squad.

I prefer Elliott at right back/right wing back rather than centre half although he needs to improve his defending and get closer to the opposition at times like Kellan Gordon.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby bear 73 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:44 am

part time pete wrote:I thought up to the sending off Bowery was playing better at centre back that what Hawkins did in the first half.

A number of times Bowery broke up play, intercepted the ball, passed the ball out well and generally was defensively sound.

Just got done by misjudging the bounce of the ball and the rest is history.

The swop of Hawkins and Bowery worked , Bowery was not a fault for any of their goals, and Hawkins got us back into the game.
Bowery took one for the team he stopped Collins going one v one with the goalkeeper, and the resulting free kick did not lead to a goal.
With the players available switching Hawkins and Bowery proberly was the only option to change the game and if Hewitts last effort was not cleared off the line,
It would have, small margins
No one thinks Bowery is a centre half but when the chips are down and with their forwrds it was pace and not height needed.
A gamble which paid of Hawkins got us back into the game.
Failed at orient Bowery missing
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby STAGS FOR LIFE » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:30 am

:) Should always play to your strengths or the opposition will exploit your weaknesses.

When the manager as players who play various positions , the blame can shifted to the players rather than his team selection .

Still fully behind NC :D ;) :lol:
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:36 am

Jordan Bowery did not play well up front in the 1st half but did a lot better at centre half in the 2nd half. He was having a good game until the defensive error and sending off.

Oli Hawkins did not play well at centre half as he gave the ball away three times and he got caught out for a lack of pace when Derby were threading balls through our defence. He played well up front, scored a goal and hit the bar.

We will need Oli Hawkins in defence when we play against the more direct teams who try and hit a target man in the air. He was at his best against the likes of Orient, Harrogate, Newport and Northampton. I must admit though that I am not comfortable when we are using him as a playmaker in the middle of the defence because of his tendency to give the ball away like at Hartlepool and Oldham last season. He did it a couple of times against Tranmere and three times against Derby. We really do need another quality defender who can do the do the no nonsense stuff but who is also good on the ball. A left sided defender would also add that balance. It would probably be an expensive signing though to get the necessary quality. I am sure Nigel Clough will be interested if the right player becomes available.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Marky Mark » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:43 am

At some stage on this thread someone has said that just about every player we have is either good, average or poor. I think what that means is that they're League 2 players in a League 2 team.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby gazza1988 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:52 am

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:I disagree I think Hewitt is below league two standard.


Elliott Hewitt has just made 40(3) league starts for a team that made the League 2 Play Off Final. He's comfortably League 2 standard and would have no problems signing for another League 2 club. He's also one of the fittest players in our squad.

I prefer Elliott at right back/right wing back rather than centre half although he needs to improve his defending and get closer to the opposition at times like Kellan Gordon.


I agree, I think he can be useful on the right of a back 3 (they cover behind the wing back of they're tmattack essentially a RB)

As for below league 2 standard.

He's played in 14 games at championship level. 41 at league 1 level and 262 at league 2 level (at the time of writing). He's played 10 games for Wales u21 and 3 games for Wales u17.

He was also part of the Notts County team that both got to the play offs and got relegated (played a total of 152 games for them) . He played defensive midfield more times at county, than any other position (59 games) as a right back 43 times and CB 19 times (played CM, LB, LW and RW for them as well.)
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby bobbystagsfan » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:24 pm

gazza1988 wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:I disagree I think Hewitt is below league two standard.


Elliott Hewitt has just made 40(3) league starts for a team that made the League 2 Play Off Final. He's comfortably League 2 standard and would have no problems signing for another League 2 club. He's also one of the fittest players in our squad.

I prefer Elliott at right back/right wing back rather than centre half although he needs to improve his defending and get closer to the opposition at times like Kellan Gordon.


I agree, I think he can be useful on the right of a back 3 (they cover behind the wing back of they're tmattack essentially a RB)

As for below league 2 standard.

He's played in 14 games at championship level. 41 at league 1 level and 262 at league 2 level (at the time of writing). He's played 10 games for Wales u21 and 3 games for Wales u17.

He was also part of the Notts County team that both got to the play offs and got relegated (played a total of 152 games for them) . He played defensive midfield more times at county, than any other position (59 games) as a right back 43 times and CB 19 times (played CM, LB, LW and RW for them as well.)



so you're also saying footballers aren't as 1 dimensional as people make out and can actually play in multiple positions? ;)
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby gazza1988 » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:45 pm

bobbystagsfan wrote:
gazza1988 wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:I disagree I think Hewitt is below league two standard.


Elliott Hewitt has just made 40(3) league starts for a team that made the League 2 Play Off Final. He's comfortably League 2 standard and would have no problems signing for another League 2 club. He's also one of the fittest players in our squad.

I prefer Elliott at right back/right wing back rather than centre half although he needs to improve his defending and get closer to the opposition at times like Kellan Gordon.


I agree, I think he can be useful on the right of a back 3 (they cover behind the wing back of they're tmattack essentially a RB)

As for below league 2 standard.

He's played in 14 games at championship level. 41 at league 1 level and 262 at league 2 level (at the time of writing). He's played 10 games for Wales u21 and 3 games for Wales u17.

He was also part of the Notts County team that both got to the play offs and got relegated (played a total of 152 games for them) . He played defensive midfield more times at county, than any other position (59 games) as a right back 43 times and CB 19 times (played CM, LB, LW and RW for them as well.)



so you're also saying footballers aren't as 1 dimensional as people make out and can actually play in multiple positions? ;)


Yes they can. Never claimed they couldn't. My gripe was/is signing players and playing them in their "secondary" position when they could play in their primary position. I'm all for playing your best available players in their best positions. If we've got a few injuries and/or suspensions meaning we have nobody available in a certain position then you do play a player out of position. Many older players are more able to adapt to multiple positions than younger players. Perhaps why Clough prefers experience over inexperience.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Conker » Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:46 pm

The Hewitt below League 2 standard is a weird one, nothing to suggest that’s true at all.
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Re: Derby Fred sponsored by I did it in a previous life

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:55 pm

Conker wrote:The Hewitt below League 2 standard is a weird one, nothing to suggest that’s true at all.
Just an opinion, I hope he proves me wrong. He has been in two teams that were relegated to the National League. Had a poor game in the play off final. Started poorly last season. Was poor in the latest game against Derby ( should have been sent off early on in the game, scored an own goal and was skinned for the second goal.).
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