Doldrums

[part time pete]

How do you take points deductions into account. Do you use points and positions earned on the pitch or is it the final points and positions at the end of the season with any point deduction penalties.

[Marky Mark]

Surely you would only go as far back as 1981 when 3 points for a win was introduced. Otherwise you're including positions we wouldn't have necessarily finished in had it been 3 points for a win like it is now.

What we need to do then would be write down every finish (1st in conference is 93rd, 3rd I'd 95th etc)

Then find the mean median and mode of those finishes and see where it puts us.

That's picking and choosing figures again. 2pts or 3pts for a win, 88 or 92 teams in the league. It was the same rules for every single team in the league at that particular time. Our average league position since 1931 is 67, since 1958 which Rob asked about it's 71.
Weighting the figures to make every season up to 92 Marky Mark managed to get our average position since 1931 up to 73 and surely you can see that is not right when 20 years in the top 66 teams in the league should bring the average down

We haven't spent 20 years in the Top 66 unless you disregard an entire division for 20 years. We were in the Top 7 last year if you ignore the Premier League, Championship and League One.

[Suttonian]

Not disregarding it because div N and S ran alongside each other

Div1
Div2
Div3S Div3N

[Suttonian]

How do you take points deductions into account. Do you use points and positions earned on the pitch or is it the final points and positions at the end of the season with any point deduction penalties.

Final position after penalties

[Marky Mark]

Not disregarding it because div N and S ran alongside each other

Div1
Div2
Div3S Div3N

So you know there were 88 teams but you're only choosing to count 66?

[Suttonian]

Champions of each division 3 were promoted to division 2, bottom 2 of each division applied for re-election so both divisions were equal. I suppose you could assume the top 12 of each division was better than the bottom 12 of the opposite division but that hierarchy didn't come into being until North and South were amalgamated into div 3 and 4 in 1958

[Sandy Pate Best Stag]

Not disregarding it because div N and S ran alongside each other

Div1
Div2
Div3S Div3N

So you know there were 88 teams but you're only choosing to count 66?

Yes but two of those divisions were equal on merit exactly the same as National League North and South so effectively there were only 3 divisions. You can’t count both divisions as separate entities as effectively they were exactly the same. Neither was superior to the other so surely you can’t count both in any analysis. At least that’s what logic tells me.

[Marky Mark]

Not disregarding it because div N and S ran alongside each other

Div1
Div2
Div3S Div3N

So you know there were 88 teams but you're only choosing to count 66?

Yes but two of those divisions were equal on merit exactly the same as National League North and South so effectively there were only 3 divisions. You can’t count both divisions as separate entities as effectively they were exactly the same. Neither was superior to the other so surely you can’t count both in any analysis. At least that’s what logic tells me.

The league was formed of 88 teams, but no-one finished between 67 and 88?

[Sandy Pate Best Stag]

Not disregarding it because div N and S ran alongside each other

Div1
Div2
Div3S Div3N

So you know there were 88 teams but you're only choosing to count 66?

Yes but two of those divisions were equal on merit exactly the same as National League North and South so effectively there were only 3 divisions. You can’t count both divisions as separate entities as effectively they were exactly the same. Neither was superior to the other so surely you can’t count both in any analysis. At least that’s what logic tells me.

The league was formed of 88 teams, but no-one finished between 67 and 88?

Correct. It’s not one league and you couldn’t be relegated or promoted between Divisions 3 North and South. It was merely a question of geography which league you ended up in.

[Marky Mark]

How did I forget the Stagsnet mantra: 'if you think doing something is a good idea, it isn't'

[Suttonian]

I didn't invent the idea of regional football and two 3rd divisions running concurrently

[Rob]

I didn't invent the idea of regional football and two 3rd divisions running concurrently

But you have to admit that puts us in a false position in terms of where we place on merit out of 92? As Mark says it's effectively ignoring there are 2 Div 3's as our position would is the same if you completely discount the league we weren't in.

Your figure of 71st since 1958, I assume you used our National League placings as 104, 101 etc? I guess the size of the divisions have fluctuated, but 71st is 3rd (I think) in League 2, which doesn't feel right to me.

[Marky Mark]

I sent the link earlier, but dont think that I enabled access to it

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

[Suttonian]

I didn't invent the idea of regional football and two 3rd divisions running concurrently

But you have to admit that puts us in a false position in terms of where we place on merit out of 92? As Mark says it's effectively ignoring there are 2 Div 3's as our position would is the same if you completely discount the league we weren't in.

Your figure of 71st since 1958, I assume you used our National League placings as 104, 101 etc? I guess the size of the divisions have fluctuated, but 71st is 3rd (I think) in League 2, which doesn't feel right to me.

I added up our final position in each season (5344) and divided by total seasons played (79) which gives our average league position of 67 (median is 66).
This only shows we aren't historically a mid table league 2 side during our time in the EFL. It's not ignoring two div 3s, more like counting each position in either div 3 as equal - teams place 1 to 44 in divs 1 & 2 and =45th down to =66th in div 3S & div 3N.

You are right it doesn't show where we place on merit out of 92 but I wasn't trying to, it's hard to agree on a method for that in the years there were less than 92 clubs or div 3N & S. SPBS explained it best a few posts up when he described div 3 N and S as being exactly the same as National League N and S - neither is prioritised over the other (both are step 2)and both are feeder divisions to the Conference Premier (step 1). 4 seasons in div 3S 16 seasons in div 3N you can't prioritise one over the other because that's how the Football League set it up - as two separate feeder divisions into division 2 and both were at the same level.

No I didn't count our seasons in the National League, Notts and Derbys League, Central Alliance or Midland League. Only the actual Football League placings. As far as I know since 1958 the size of divisions only fluctuate when a team drops out eg.Bury, Maidstone, Accrington, so only down to 91 teams. Total league positions since 1958 (4211) divided by total seasons played (59) gave an average position of 71.

Hope this helps

[Sandy Pate Best Stag]

If you bring the theory down a number of levels to regional football there are equivalent status leagues throughout the country. For arguments sake let’s say there are ten equal leagues each containing twenty teams.

If a team finished 3rd in their own league, you wouldn’t say they finished 183rd overall because you took the other leagues into account. I know this is an extreme example but the principle is exactly the same and why you should discount one of the old division 3’s when evaluating the average position.

As I said earlier, you can make a case for just about every scenario and it’s only here and now which should be judged.

[Rob]

I didn't invent the idea of regional football and two 3rd divisions running concurrently

But you have to admit that puts us in a false position in terms of where we place on merit out of 92? As Mark says it's effectively ignoring there are 2 Div 3's as our position would is the same if you completely discount the league we weren't in.

Your figure of 71st since 1958, I assume you used our National League placings as 104, 101 etc? I guess the size of the divisions have fluctuated, but 71st is 3rd (I think) in League 2, which doesn't feel right to me.

I added up our final position in each season (5344) and divided by total seasons played (79) which gives our average league position of 67 (median is 66).
This only shows we aren't historically a mid table league 2 side during our time in the EFL. It's not ignoring two div 3s, more like counting each position in either div 3 as equal - teams place 1 to 44 in divs 1 & 2 and =45th down to =66th in div 3S & div 3N.

You are right it doesn't show where we place on merit out of 92 but I wasn't trying to, it's hard to agree on a method for that in the years there were less than 92 clubs or div 3N & S. SPBS explained it best a few posts up when he described div 3 N and S as being exactly the same as National League N and S - neither is prioritised over the other (both are step 2)and both are feeder divisions to the Conference Premier (step 1). 4 seasons in div 3S 16 seasons in div 3N you can't prioritise one over the other because that's how the Football League set it up - as two separate feeder divisions into division 2 and both were at the same level.

No I didn't count our seasons in the National League, Notts and Derbys League, Central Alliance or Midland League. Only the actual Football League placings. As far as I know since 1958 the size of divisions only fluctuate when a team drops out eg.Bury, Maidstone, Accrington, so only down to 91 teams. Total league positions since 1958 (4211) divided by total seasons played (59) gave an average position of 71.

Hope this helps

You have gone way above the call of duty

Thank you, but I still think we are historically a mid table League 2 side, sorry Since 1958, if you add our National League position, that's about where we'd be, about 76th out of 92.

[Suttonian]

Since 1958 it's 73 if you want to add the non league years or 5th in League 2.

If you want to use 1958 as a yardstick to measure our postion among the 92 League clubs in a straightforward 4 divisions connected by promotion and relegation then why do you want to bring that position down by adding 5 seasons when we weren't in the 92? That's more like a question of where do we sit in the football pyramid. We've played as low as level 5 so the answer is 73rd out of an estimated 7000 teams https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/English ... gue_system

[ST4GS]

I sent the link earlier, but dont think that I enabled access to it

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

Assuming div 3 north and south are equal standard then if you adjust position as follows:
A = number of teams in division 1
B = number of teams in divisiin 2
C = our position in division 3 N or S

Formula for overall position = A+B + (C*2)-1

[arsene wengers coat]

However you mark it, we need to be exceeding our historical average league position. It's this engrained L2 mindset that we are trying to shake off.

This thread epitomises our problem - I get slated for suggesting we ought to be doing better and questioning our "progress", while the debate turns into a conversation about how to calculate how lowly our overall position is.

Let's shake.off the shackles of history and propel ourselves. We're need to if we are to continue to grow the club.

[Sandy Pate Best Stag]

However you mark it, we need to be exceeding our historical average league position. It's this engrained L2 mindset that we are trying to shake off.

This thread epitomises our problem - I get slated for suggesting we ought to be doing better and questioning our "progress", while the debate turns into a conversation about how to calculate how lowly our overall position is.

Let's shake.off the shackles of history and propel ourselves. We're need to if we are to continue to grow the club.

100% agree. The past is the past so let’s just make the future great.

[Sneag]

However you mark it, we need to be exceeding our historical average league position. It's this engrained L2 mindset that we are trying to shake off.

This thread epitomises our problem - I get slated for suggesting we ought to be doing better and questioning our "progress", while the debate turns into a conversation about how to calculate how lowly our overall position is.

Let's shake.off the shackles of history and propel ourselves. We're need to if we are to continue to grow the club.

100% agree. The past is the past so let’s just make the future great.

In total agreement with AWS & SPBS.

The world's gone mad.

[Suttonian]

However you mark it, we need to be exceeding our historical average league position. It's this engrained L2 mindset that we are trying to shake off.

This thread epitomises our problem - I get slated for suggesting we ought to be doing better and questioning our "progress", while the debate turns into a conversation about how to calculate how lowly our overall position is.

Let's shake.off the shackles of history and propel ourselves. We're need to if we are to continue to grow the club.

I wasn't doing it to show how lowly we are I was just trying to show historically we aren't as bad as people seem to think we are. As Gazza said, in his lifetime he's only seen 1 season of League 1 football but in my lifetime I've been around for all our winning seasons. Different experiences but you can see why some people think we've only ever been a middle of the road League 2 team if that is all they've seen.

I won't slate you for questioning our progress as it's something you hear a lot of our fans asking about (myself included) - wondering what we've got to do to get into League 1 after all the stated ambition and investment by JR and I believe we should have done a lot better than we have.

Here's hoping for better days still to come

[Rob]

However you mark it, we need to be exceeding our historical average league position. It's this engrained L2 mindset that we are trying to shake off.

This thread epitomises our problem - I get slated for suggesting we ought to be doing better and questioning our "progress", while the debate turns into a conversation about how to calculate how lowly our overall position is.

Let's shake.off the shackles of history and propel ourselves. We're need to if we are to continue to grow the club.

I wasn't doing it to show how lowly we are I was just trying to show historically we aren't as bad as people seem to think we are. As Gazza said, in his lifetime he's only seen 1 season of League 1 football but in my lifetime I've been around for all our winning seasons. Different experiences but you can see why some people think we've only ever been a middle of the road League 2 team if that is all they've seen.

I won't slate you for questioning our progress as it's something you hear a lot of our fans asking about (myself included) - wondering what we've got to do to get into League 1 after all the stated ambition and investment by JR and I believe we should have done a lot better than we have.

Here's hoping for better days still to come

Well said Suttonian and thanks, I found it interesting as I'm sure did others interested in what has been as well as what might be.

[Marky Mark]

I sent the link earlier, but dont think that I enabled access to it

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... ue&sd=true

Assuming div 3 north and south are equal standard then if you adjust position as follows:
A = number of teams in division 1
B = number of teams in divisiin 2
C = our position in division 3 N or S

Formula for overall position = A+B + (C*2)-1

Yeah, I considered that, and the formula makes sense. What I ended up doing was looking at where we stood in a joint league table points wise - it ended up being similar to your formula. Whichever way you cut it, our average has never moved much from a span of (current) 2nd bottom of League 1 to 5th top of League 2 - and it's about 5 or 6 places higher than I presumed we'd be.

What is obvious is that it's been getting gradually worse from a high of the late 70s and we are sat at around our lowest average point since the war. We've only been higher than average 3 times in the last 30 years, and once during the JR era - and proves the overall point of the thread that this isn't good enough given the investment in the last 10 years

[Suttonian]

What is obvious is that it's been getting gradually worse from a high of the late 70s and we are sat at around our lowest average point since the war. We've only been higher than average 3 times in the last 30 years, and once during the JR era - and proves the overall point of the thread that this isn't good enough given the investment in the last 10 years

Thumbs up to that Marky Mark.

Given the title of this thread it shows we've been in the doldrums for the last 30 years and it's about time we got some wind in our sails