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Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues 8pm

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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby zod » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:29 pm

I am Spartacus wrote: If your definition of prestigious is seeing a new signing then why didn’t the Mill have 5,000 plus for the Rotherham game?


Maybe because it was a nice day and folk were doing gardening or something. :lol:
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:36 pm

I am Spartacus wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:
I am Spartacus wrote:
Johnny H wrote:I no longer have any involvement with Policing football matches within Notts......5th season coming up !!

But I can guarantee that Notts Police did not tell MTFC they had to play behind closed doors....they have no authority to do that.

What I imagine happened was that NP told MTFC that the game would have to be a Policed fixture (The disorder last time v SUFC shows this and the potential repercussions).
MTFC then decided they wouldn't pay, so had no fans in to watch a game that would have potentially only had 3-4k in too watch.....

NCFC would happily have swallowed the Policing bill for last night as they knew they would get 12-15k


Well said Johnny, this is the reasoning behind it in a nutshell. Police would have informed the club based upon the intelligence at the time. We and Sheffield Utd have history, that given the travel time, is more than likely to be repeated. Why burden the club with the expense of policing the ground, the tax payer with the cost of policing the town and surrounding area for a friendly? A few years ago we had a game against Villa cancelled for the same reason.

The same people on here complaining about a practice game, which for all intents as purposes it is, being played behind closed doors are the same ones that would moan about over policing in the town and wasting taxpayers money if the day was incident free or complaining they had to cower in a shop doorway as the police did nothing whilst the game played on Notts Road was BBC vs MSE.

So you didn’t get to watch a practice game, the club has loads of behind closed doors game all season. Can’t hear you moaning about them (for your information most of them are terrible to watch as I have officiated some).

Enjoy the game Saturday, it’s when proper football starts and then you will, hopefully not this season, have some real substance to your moaning.
Hardly a practice game. The chance to see a championship side and to view our new players. I wonder if the County v Forest game was seen as a practice game or a prestige game by County fans ?


Practice game. Stags play Championship sides all the time, occasionally a Premier side. Depends on both clubs needs at the time. If you are calling Forest v County a prestige game then you have not that great a grip on football. All the Forest and County fans at work called it a friendly. A well attended one as they got to see new signings. If your definition of prestigious is seeing a new signing then why didn’t the Mill have 5,000 plus for the Rotherham game?
It was a prestigious friendly. Did you clock the attendance ? The point is it was allowed to go ahead with spectators.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:42 pm

Would I have liked to watch my team against a top Championship side. Yes.

Was I disappointed I could not due to police "advice". You bet.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Rob » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:50 pm

Amber Andy wrote:Would I have liked to watch my team against a top Championship side. Yes.

Was I disappointed I could not due to police "advice". You bet.


As were several thousand others Andy, but not, it appears, Spartacus :lol:

The main issues here are equality of treatment between ourselves and County, the loss of income to our club and the dangerous precedence it sets for future pre-season games at FM.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:05 pm

Rob wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:Would I have liked to watch my team against a top Championship side. Yes.

Was I disappointed I could not due to police "advice". You bet.


As were several thousand others Andy, but not, it appears, Spartacus :lol:

The main issues here are equality of treatment between ourselves and County, the loss of income to our club and the dangerous precedence it sets for future pre-season games at FM.


Or the fact that our club was unwilling to pay the police bill.

I don’t know the exact cost and it depends on the rank of each officer but what I do know is that the minimum amount of time you can hire an officer for is four hours. You have to pay for travelling and briefing time and any breaks for refreshments. The officers are all on overtime and you have to pay the enhanced rate and double on bank holidays. You don’t just pay the officer’s wages but also pay a premium for their equipment and there is a big edge on top for the police authority. I suspect the hourly rate is between £100-£150 per officer which makes the bill rather large as I can’t see the staff being less than a sergeant and six officers. I’m pretty certain the club would be charged a minimum of 6 hours per officer plus travelling expenses and refreshments.

You then have to add on top the club’s normal match day expenses and running costs and the whole lot comes out at a pretty hefty whack especially as prices for friendly games are usually greatly reduced.
Last edited by Sandy Pate Best Stag on Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:28 pm

What are our council tax payments for ? My bill shows a hefty wack for policing ?

Do pubs have to pay for policing when folks go out on the lash on weekend evenings and start drunken brauls ?
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby I am Spartacus » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:36 pm

Rob wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:Would I have liked to watch my team against a top Championship side. Yes.

Was I disappointed I could not due to police "advice". You bet.


As were several thousand others Andy, but not, it appears, Spartacus :lol:

The main issues here are equality of treatment between ourselves and County, the loss of income to our club and the dangerous precedence it sets for future pre-season games at FM.


Would I have gone had it been played yes. Was I disappointed to the extent that some on here are writing to their MP, no. I don’t have that sense of entitlement.

If friendlies were about income then why do we play the likes of Matlock? Doesn’t generate a great deal for the club. As for precedent, the policing for each every fixture is on a game by game basis. I thought you knew that…..
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Rob » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:36 pm

If it is the high policing costs I wonder what will happen for the EFL Trophy game with Derby? On the costs Sandy explains we'd be better off playing it behind closed doors as well. I suspect the gate will be much lower than Sheff Utd but it is another local side coming here.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:37 pm

Amber Andy wrote:What are our council tax payments for ? My bill shows a hefty wack for policing ?


You can’t hire normally rostered officers. They are reserved for normal day to day policing and is what you pay your rates for. That’s why overtime rates are charged as the officer is either on rest day or has already completed the day’s shift or is working later.

Clubs only pay for officers deployed inside the ground and they are the ones charged for. If officers are used outside of the ground they come from the general allocation and are not ‘hired’. So clubs pay for officers inside the ground (private place) and the public pay for those outside through the rates.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:39 pm

I thought you knew friendlies are a build up ending with a prestige game against higher opposition. Ours started with Retford.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:43 pm

Rob wrote:If it is the high policing costs I wonder what will happen for the EFL Trophy game with Derby? On the costs Sandy explains we'd be better off playing it behind closed doors as well. I suspect the gate will be much lower than Sheff Utd but it is another local side coming here.


That’s the joy of owning a football club. You know you have to complete fixtures and generally budget for it. Most matches are played without much police presence these days but an assessment will be made depending on the number of travelling fans. I’m sure the club will calculate policing costs over the season and not individual matches.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 1:48 pm

Can't wait for them to announce Grimsby will be 3am on a Thursday night behind closed doors because something 'might' happen...
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Marky Mark » Thu Jul 28, 2022 2:02 pm

I'm less concerned about Sheff Utd being behind closed doors than I am about the reason why the likes of games v's Barrow at home being a 12pm kick off, but understand why others are
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby I am Spartacus » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:27 pm

Dan wrote:Can't wait for them to announce Grimsby will be 3am on a Thursday night behind closed doors because something 'might' happen...


It wasn’t that long ago that Sheff Utd played Grimsby in a pre-season friendly and all hell broke loose around the ground.

Without a substantial police presence something definitely ‘might’ happen….
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby I am Spartacus » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:29 pm

Marky Mark wrote:I'm less concerned about Sheff Utd being behind closed doors than I am about the reason why the likes of games v's Barrow at home being a 12pm kick off, but understand why others are


I can understand why games are moved due to Police request but, like Mark, the changes for games like Barrow need to be fully explained.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby I am Spartacus » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:31 pm

Amber Andy wrote:I thought you knew friendlies are a build up ending with a prestige game against higher opposition. Ours started with Retford.


Prestige, to me means an opposition of heritage and with players whose name could draw in the crowds alone. Not another Premier League wannabe / can’t be that in the not so long past we played in the league. Next you will be telling me that QPR and Fulham are prestigious opposition.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Rob » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:49 pm

Marky Mark wrote:I'm less concerned about Sheff Utd being behind closed doors than I am about the reason why the likes of games v's Barrow at home being a 12pm kick off, but understand why others are


I'm sure if the club had known that they'd have had to play behind closed doors they would have organised a friendly with a team where police presence was either not required or very minimal. I am not surprised the club were angry about this. What we still don't know, as others are just guessing, is if the club made the decision based on costs or, as was reported in the media, did so because they were "advised" to do so by the Notts Police.

Moving kick off times rarely works, those hell bent on getting drunk and causing trouble just do it 3 hours earlier! In fact, the worst violence I have ever seen at a football match (at Chesterfield) was a 12 noon kick off.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:58 pm

Rob wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:I'm less concerned about Sheff Utd being behind closed doors than I am about the reason why the likes of games v's Barrow at home being a 12pm kick off, but understand why others are


I'm sure if the club had known that they'd have had to play behind closed doors they would have organised a friendly with a team where police presence was either not required or very minimal. I am not surprised the club were angry about this. What we still don't know, as others are just guessing, is if the club made the decision based on costs or, as was reported in the media, did so because they were "advised" to do so by the Notts Police.

Moving kick off times rarely works, those hell bent on getting drunk and causing trouble just do it 3 hours earlier! In fact, the worst violence I have ever seen at a football match (at Chesterfield) was a 12 noon kick off.


What we do know is that EVERYONE who has commented is guessing at the reason, whichever side of the fence they sit or whoever they blame.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:01 pm

It probably speaks volumes that a current serving officer hasn't got a clue either!
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby cassellswasmagic » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:08 pm

Rob wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:I'm less concerned about Sheff Utd being behind closed doors than I am about the reason why the likes of games v's Barrow at home being a 12pm kick off, but understand why others are


I'm sure if the club had known that they'd have had to play behind closed doors they would have organised a friendly with a team where police presence was either not required or very minimal. I am not surprised the club were angry about this. What we still don't know, as others are just guessing, is if the club made the decision based on costs or, as was reported in the media, did so because they were "advised" to do so by the Notts Police.

Moving kick off times rarely works, those hell bent on getting drunk and causing trouble just do it 3 hours earlier! In fact, the worst violence I have ever seen at a football match (at Chesterfield) was a 12 noon kick off.

Remember a Burnley home game in the late 80s being a bit scary walking onto QL. Some right scrapping and mounted police all over. They were the days Rob!!!
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:57 pm

I am Spartacus wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:I thought you knew friendlies are a build up ending with a prestige game against higher opposition. Ours started with Retford.


Prestige, to me means an opposition of heritage and with players whose name could draw in the crowds alone. Not another Premier League wannabe / can’t be that in the not so long past we played in the league. Next you will be telling me that QPR and Fulham are prestigious opposition.

They are two leagues above and well established in the Championship. However, you miss the point. How many other league 1 and league 2 clubs have played higher league opposition with no interference from the police ?
Many have. Our conference neighbours played against their Premership neighbours in front of fans. This is the main reason for the disgruntlement. The point of which you are missing.

Anyway, water under the bridge now as the season starts soon. Until of course we are hit with more restrictions from Nottinghamshire police regarding kick off times.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Johnny H » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:26 pm

Did you not read the first line of the post Dan ?

There are many things within the Police Force I have no involvement in anymore.....like Public Order, Searching Scenes, Traffic, Domestic Violence, Controlling Coercive Behaviour and Harassments for a few examples.
I just know that NP do not dictate what MTFC can or cant do......
The match would deffo have required policing.
I imagine 1 Sgt and 6 Pcs to be paid for by the club.....add to that the cost of Stewards, Food, Drink and all other match days costs the club decided it was not worth it.
Probably the right decision on financial reasons in hindsight, given how hot the day was and the lesser crowd that may have attended.

Still to this day there are fans that think Gabbitas Gate was a Police Decision???
That gate has probably saved the club 250k+ since it was built....if not more!!
Its the best thing the club has ever done to combat disorder at games.


No matter what NP or MTFC do there will always been mindless idiots that cause trouble....especially when history dictates potential retaliation.
Punch ups in town and Nottingham Road are always gonna happen, like they do on every street in the land at times......but 50 or 60 a side has not happened at One Call Stadium for a decade or more now since the club erected the gate.
Whereas away from home I can think of many occasions it has.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:41 pm

Johnny H wrote:Did you not read the first line of the post Dan ?

There are many things within the Police Force I have no involvement in anymore.....like Public Order, Searching Scenes, Traffic, Domestic Violence, Controlling Coercive Behaviour and Harassments for a few examples.
I just know that NP do not dictate what MTFC can or cant do......
The match would deffo have required policing.
I imagine 1 Sgt and 6 Pcs to be paid for by the club.....add to that the cost of Stewards, Food, Drink and all other match days costs the club decided it was not worth it.
Probably the right decision on financial reasons in hindsight, given how hot the day was and the lesser crowd that may have attended.

Still to this day there are fans that think Gabbitas Gate was a Police Decision???
That gate has probably saved the club 250k+ since it was built....if not more!!
Its the best thing the club has ever done to combat disorder at games.


No matter what NP or MTFC do there will always been mindless idiots that cause trouble....especially when history dictates potential retaliation.
Punch ups in town and Nottingham Road are always gonna happen, like they do on every street in the land at times......but 50 or 60 a side has not happened at One Call Stadium for a decade or more now since the club erected the gate.
Whereas away from home I can think of many occasions it has.
I have no problem with the gate.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:09 pm

Johnny H wrote:Did you not read the first line of the post Dan ?

There are many things within the Police Force I have no involvement in anymore.....like Public Order, Searching Scenes, Traffic, Domestic Violence, Controlling Coercive Behaviour and Harassments for a few examples.
I just know that NP do not dictate what MTFC can or cant do......
The match would deffo have required policing.
I imagine 1 Sgt and 6 Pcs to be paid for by the club.....add to that the cost of Stewards, Food, Drink and all other match days costs the club decided it was not worth it.
Probably the right decision on financial reasons in hindsight, given how hot the day was and the lesser crowd that may have attended.

Still to this day there are fans that think Gabbitas Gate was a Police Decision???
That gate has probably saved the club 250k+ since it was built....if not more!!
Its the best thing the club has ever done to combat disorder at games.


No matter what NP or MTFC do there will always been mindless idiots that cause trouble....especially when history dictates potential retaliation.
Punch ups in town and Nottingham Road are always gonna happen, like they do on every street in the land at times......but 50 or 60 a side has not happened at One Call Stadium for a decade or more now since the club erected the gate.
Whereas away from home I can think of many occasions it has.


That's a strange thing to say, why did you list those things, aren't they things the police are meant to investigate? What exactly do you do for our money!?

Also if you ask the safety officers at the club they will tell you it WAS a police decision. And if you'd ever had the misfortune of being stuck at that gate while 15 Crawley fans get on their coach you would also know that the club have to wait for the police to give the go ahead to open the gates. I saw it with my own eyes last season on the many occasions I got stuck there. Fans were asking the stewards to open the gate and they said they couldn't until the police said so and having seen it myself I think you're telling porky pies and not for the first time either.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:21 pm

Dan

Club stewards have always taken guidance from the police officers on duty. That doesn’t mean they have to but merely follow best practices as the officers are aware of what’s happening around the general area (via their radios) as opposed to what’s happening just at the ground.

I agree that the gate does appear OTT at times but it does no doubt keep policing/stewarding costs down which is often the name of the game.

Whether we like it or not the gate is probably there to stay. Compare it to places like Grimsby where they have endless lines of police to direct how fans leave the ground and you can see it’s worth. The problem is you can’t easily shut it once open so those concerned will always err on the side of caution even when it’s obviously unnecessary.
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