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Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues 8pm

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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 8:49 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Dan

Club stewards have always taken guidance from the police officers on duty. That doesn’t mean they have to but merely follow best practices as the officers are aware of what’s happening around the general area (via their radios) as opposed to what’s happening just at the ground.

I agree that the gate does appear OTT at times but it does no doubt keep policing/stewarding costs down which is often the name of the game.

Whether we like it or not the gate is probably there to stay. Compare it to places like Grimsby where they have endless lines of police to direct how fans leave the ground and you can see it’s worth. The problem is you can’t easily shut it once open so those concerned will always err on the side of caution even when it’s obviously unnecessary.


There you go then it's not the clubs decision then is it?!
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:13 pm

Dan wrote:
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Dan

Club stewards have always taken guidance from the police officers on duty. That doesn’t mean they have to but merely follow best practices as the officers are aware of what’s happening around the general area (via their radios) as opposed to what’s happening just at the ground.

I agree that the gate does appear OTT at times but it does no doubt keep policing/stewarding costs down which is often the name of the game.

Whether we like it or not the gate is probably there to stay. Compare it to places like Grimsby where they have endless lines of police to direct how fans leave the ground and you can see it’s worth. The problem is you can’t easily shut it once open so those concerned will always err on the side of caution even when it’s obviously unnecessary.


There you go then it's not the clubs decision then is it?!


Dan

If you read again, I said guidance not instructions. I was also talking about guidance in general not just around the gate issue.

The club installed the gate at their expense for whatever reason at the time. They have total control over its operation and if they didn’t want to close it, I’m sure it would remain open.

Without it being there they would have to pay for sufficient police/stewards to segregate the fans. It’s not there just to upset fans by not allowing them to take a shorter route.

I realise you have an issue with this methodology but I’m sure you would be more upset if lines of police/stewards physically stopped you from taking the shortcut and maybe even arrested you for not doing as you were instructed. We know it’s going to be closed so why not just plan a route to avoid it.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:22 pm

Why should we? It's a public walkway and shouldn't be allowed to be closed. I'm not even sure that it's legal to close it either: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-righ ... sibilities

Keep public rights of way clear of obstructions
As the owner or occupier of land with a public right of way across it, you must:

avoid putting obstructions on or across the route, such as permanent or temporary fences, walls, hedgerows, padlocked gates or barbed wire. Obstructing a public right of way is a criminal offence. The highway authority has the right to demand you remove any obstruction you cause. If you don’t, the highway authority can remove the obstruction and recover the cost from you.


It's funny how the police can lock a gate they're not legally allowed to do but yet don't bother moving cars that are a danger to life at the other end of the stadium "because they can't" :lol:
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:35 pm

Dan wrote:Why should we? It's a public walkway and shouldn't be allowed to be closed. I'm not even sure that it's legal to close it either: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-righ ... sibilities

Keep public rights of way clear of obstructions
As the owner or occupier of land with a public right of way across it, you must:

avoid putting obstructions on or across the route, such as permanent or temporary fences, walls, hedgerows, padlocked gates or barbed wire. Obstructing a public right of way is a criminal offence. The highway authority has the right to demand you remove any obstruction you cause. If you don’t, the highway authority can remove the obstruction and recover the cost from you.


It's funny how the police can lock a gate they're not legally allowed to do but yet don't bother moving cars that are a danger to life at the other end of the stadium.


I actually agree with the sentiments of that Dan. You keep saying that it’s the police that do it but I’m pretty sure it’s the club. If we find out where the keys are kept, it should be a pretty big clue. The club are definitely responsible for traffic control on their premises not the police.

Back to the footpath and right of way. Enforcement of that legislation is down to Notts County Council who I’m sure will investigate any complaint you would care to make.

The solution of course is for the club to apply for the right of way to be diverted and pay for the process and new route. The club are responsible as the right of way is on their land.

Remember the SAG is also the responsibility of NCC and they may insist on extra precautions if the gate is not there or the club are ordered to respect the public right of way. Whatever the outcome of your complaint, I’m sure it will cost the club a substantial amount of money even if it’s only extra stewarding in the short term.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:17 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Dan

Club stewards have always taken guidance from the police officers on duty. That doesn’t mean they have to but merely follow best practices as the officers are aware of what’s happening around the general area (via their radios) as opposed to what’s happening just at the ground.

I agree that the gate does appear OTT at times but it does no doubt keep policing/stewarding costs down which is often the name of the game.

Whether we like it or not the gate is probably there to stay. Compare it to places like Grimsby where they have endless lines of police to direct how fans leave the ground and you can see it’s worth. The problem is you can’t easily shut it once open so those concerned will always err on the side of caution even when it’s obviously unnecessary.


And if the club did not follow the police advice and something happened, what then ? My guess is the club would be in serious trouble.

So whether it be the gate, (which as previously stated I don't have a problem with ) or being advised to play a game behind closed doors, the club in reality is forced to follow the police instructions.

Those on here defending the police advice, don't seem to have addressed the perceived double standards, regarding our game with Sheffield United having to be played behind closed doors, yet the County v Forest game being played in front of fans.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:40 pm

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
Dan wrote:Why should we? It's a public walkway and shouldn't be allowed to be closed. I'm not even sure that it's legal to close it either: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/public-righ ... sibilities

Keep public rights of way clear of obstructions
As the owner or occupier of land with a public right of way across it, you must:

avoid putting obstructions on or across the route, such as permanent or temporary fences, walls, hedgerows, padlocked gates or barbed wire. Obstructing a public right of way is a criminal offence. The highway authority has the right to demand you remove any obstruction you cause. If you don’t, the highway authority can remove the obstruction and recover the cost from you.


It's funny how the police can lock a gate they're not legally allowed to do but yet don't bother moving cars that are a danger to life at the other end of the stadium.


I actually agree with the sentiments of that Dan. You keep saying that it’s the police that do it but I’m pretty sure it’s the club. If we find out where the keys are kept, it should be a pretty big clue. The club are definitely responsible for traffic control on their premises not the police.

Back to the footpath and right of way. Enforcement of that legislation is down to Notts County Council who I’m sure will investigate any complaint you would care to make.

The solution of course is for the club to apply for the right of way to be diverted and pay for the process and new route. The club are responsible as the right of way is on their land.

Remember the SAG is also the responsibility of NCC and they may insist on extra precautions if the gate is not there or the club are ordered to respect the public right of way. Whatever the outcome of your complaint, I’m sure it will cost the club a substantial amount of money even if it’s only extra stewarding in the short term.


I put on here after a game (I can’t remember which one but it was a night match) that you might have seen that the gate was shut for well over half an hour after a match because the away fans were actually fighting each other on one of their coaches! The fans were getting really irate with the stewards because they were our side of the gate and they were female stewards & they were getting really badly verbally abused. Words like slags and whores were being used. I went over to protect them from it as I know them and they were only doing their jobs and all the police were on the other side of the gate. The head steward then said along the lines of it wouldn’t be so bad if it was our decision but it’s not it’s theirs and pointed at the police. The gate had a padlock on it. The person who then unlocked the padlock was a police officer. He got some pretty strong ‘advice’ when we were finally let through. So to me that tells me all I need to know about who has the key & who makes the decisions.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Jul 29, 2022 5:39 am

There is an easy answer Dan if this upsets you so much. Make an official complaint to the footpaths officer at Notts CC.

Ask for a written reply and tell them you will go to the ombudsman if they take no action. I can guarantee it will be the club that any enforcement action is taken against as they are the land owners and are ultimately responsible for the right of way.

As you correctly say, although the police have powers to close roads and footpaths in an emergency, the routine closure cannot take place on a regular and perceived basis.

In respect of the club being in trouble for failing to follow police advice Andy, I would be very interested to see what form that trouble could take.

This whole subject repeatedly goes around in circles and until someone who is genuinely upset makes a complaint and enforces their right of way, it will continue without resolution.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Gruff » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:44 am

Can't remember if it was Stoke or Sunderland towards the beginning of our only season in (the then) Division 2. PItch invasions, police horses on the pitch etc. One of the few times I felt genuinely scared in a football ground... although I was only about 10 at the time.

I guess we're still paying the price for that... :lol: :lol:
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:59 am

Gruff wrote:Can't remember if it was Stoke or Sunderland towards the beginning of our only season in (the then) Division 2. PItch invasions, police horses on the pitch etc. One of the few times I felt genuinely scared in a football ground... although I was only about 10 at the time.

I guess we're still paying the price for that... :lol: :lol:


It was Stoke and they took the police completely by surprise by arriving early morning and smashing the town centre up.

Officers from all around the county were on duty that day but weren’t due to arrive at Mansfield until around 12. By the time they arrived the damage was done and the situation was not recovered.

Although that was a stand out incident there were numerous examples of football violence at the time both at the ground and around the town. We don’t want to return to those dark days which is precisely why the club and police work together with best intentions at heart.

While we are on about safety I see legislation is being introduced to impose a mandatory football banning order on anyone caught in possession of the harmless smoke bombs.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby part time pete » Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:26 am

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:There is an easy answer Dan if this upsets you so much. Make an official complaint to the footpaths officer at Notts CC.

Ask for a written reply and tell them you will go to the ombudsman if they take no action. I can guarantee it will be the club that any enforcement action is taken against as they are the land owners and are ultimately responsible for the right of way.

As you correctly say, although the police have powers to close roads and footpaths in an emergency, the routine closure cannot take place on a regular and perceived basis.

In respect of the club being in trouble for failing to follow police advice Andy, I would be very interested to see what form that trouble could take.

This whole subject repeatedly goes around in circles and until someone who is genuinely upset makes a complaint and enforces their right of way, it will continue without resolution.


This is the link to use to report a problem

https://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/plan ... rt-problem

However when I have used it to report the gate being shut I never got a reply.

Perhaps you might get a better response Dan.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Stafford » Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:01 am

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
Gruff wrote:Can't remember if it was Stoke or Sunderland towards the beginning of our only season in (the then) Division 2. PItch invasions, police horses on the pitch etc. One of the few times I felt genuinely scared in a football ground... although I was only about 10 at the time.

I guess we're still paying the price for that... :lol: :lol:


It was Stoke and they took the police completely by surprise by arriving early morning and smashing the town centre up.

Officers from all around the county were on duty that day but weren’t due to arrive at Mansfield until around 12. By the time they arrived the damage was done and the situation was not recovered.

Although that was a stand out incident there were numerous examples of football violence at the time both at the ground and around the town. We don’t want to return to those dark days which is precisely why the club and police work together with best intentions at heart.

While we are on about safety I see legislation is being introduced to impose a mandatory football banning order on anyone caught in possession of the harmless smoke bombs.


Good. About time. I would hazard a guess that you're not asthmatic and struggle quite badly to control your breathing when these are let off in close vicinity. Absolutely no need to have them in a football stadium, ever.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Jul 29, 2022 2:37 pm

Stafford wrote:
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
Gruff wrote:Can't remember if it was Stoke or Sunderland towards the beginning of our only season in (the then) Division 2. PItch invasions, police horses on the pitch etc. One of the few times I felt genuinely scared in a football ground... although I was only about 10 at the time.

I guess we're still paying the price for that... :lol: :lol:


It was Stoke and they took the police completely by surprise by arriving early morning and smashing the town centre up.

Officers from all around the county were on duty that day but weren’t due to arrive at Mansfield until around 12. By the time they arrived the damage was done and the situation was not recovered.

Although that was a stand out incident there were numerous examples of football violence at the time both at the ground and around the town. We don’t want to return to those dark days which is precisely why the club and police work together with best intentions at heart.

While we are on about safety I see legislation is being introduced to impose a mandatory football banning order on anyone caught in possession of the harmless smoke bombs.


Good. About time. I would hazard a guess that you're not asthmatic and struggle quite badly to control your breathing when these are let off in close vicinity. Absolutely no need to have them in a football stadium, ever.


Sorry Stafford for misleading you. I don’t believe them to be harmless and was merely quoting some poster’s opinions as expressed on other threads. Having witnessed the way some were throwing them around in the fan zone at Wembley, I totally agree with the football banning orders.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Thu Aug 04, 2022 10:16 pm

Dan wrote:
Johnny H wrote:Did you not read the first line of the post Dan ?

There are many things within the Police Force I have no involvement in anymore.....like Public Order, Searching Scenes, Traffic, Domestic Violence, Controlling Coercive Behaviour and Harassments for a few examples.
I just know that NP do not dictate what MTFC can or cant do......
The match would deffo have required policing.
I imagine 1 Sgt and 6 Pcs to be paid for by the club.....add to that the cost of Stewards, Food, Drink and all other match days costs the club decided it was not worth it.
Probably the right decision on financial reasons in hindsight, given how hot the day was and the lesser crowd that may have attended.

Still to this day there are fans that think Gabbitas Gate was a Police Decision???
That gate has probably saved the club 250k+ since it was built....if not more!!
Its the best thing the club has ever done to combat disorder at games.


No matter what NP or MTFC do there will always been mindless idiots that cause trouble....especially when history dictates potential retaliation.
Punch ups in town and Nottingham Road are always gonna happen, like they do on every street in the land at times......but 50 or 60 a side has not happened at One Call Stadium for a decade or more now since the club erected the gate.
Whereas away from home I can think of many occasions it has.


That's a strange thing to say, why did you list those things, aren't they things the police are meant to investigate? What exactly do you do for our money!?

Also if you ask the safety officers at the club they will tell you it WAS a police decision. And if you'd ever had the misfortune of being stuck at that gate while 15 Crawley fans get on their coach you would also know that the club have to wait for the police to give the go ahead to open the gates. I saw it with my own eyes last season on the many occasions I got stuck there. Fans were asking the stewards to open the gate and they said they couldn't until the police said so and having seen it myself I think you're telling porky pies and not for the first time either.


The silence is deafening...
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:59 am

Dan wrote:
Dan wrote:
Johnny H wrote:Did you not read the first line of the post Dan ?

There are many things within the Police Force I have no involvement in anymore.....like Public Order, Searching Scenes, Traffic, Domestic Violence, Controlling Coercive Behaviour and Harassments for a few examples.
I just know that NP do not dictate what MTFC can or cant do......
The match would deffo have required policing.
I imagine 1 Sgt and 6 Pcs to be paid for by the club.....add to that the cost of Stewards, Food, Drink and all other match days costs the club decided it was not worth it.
Probably the right decision on financial reasons in hindsight, given how hot the day was and the lesser crowd that may have attended.

Still to this day there are fans that think Gabbitas Gate was a Police Decision???
That gate has probably saved the club 250k+ since it was built....if not more!!
Its the best thing the club has ever done to combat disorder at games.


No matter what NP or MTFC do there will always been mindless idiots that cause trouble....especially when history dictates potential retaliation.
Punch ups in town and Nottingham Road are always gonna happen, like they do on every street in the land at times......but 50 or 60 a side has not happened at One Call Stadium for a decade or more now since the club erected the gate.
Whereas away from home I can think of many occasions it has.


That's a strange thing to say, why did you list those things, aren't they things the police are meant to investigate? What exactly do you do for our money!?

Also if you ask the safety officers at the club they will tell you it WAS a police decision. And if you'd ever had the misfortune of being stuck at that gate while 15 Crawley fans get on their coach you would also know that the club have to wait for the police to give the go ahead to open the gates. I saw it with my own eyes last season on the many occasions I got stuck there. Fans were asking the stewards to open the gate and they said they couldn't until the police said so and having seen it myself I think you're telling porky pies and not for the first time either.


The silence is deafening...


Having re-read the thread, I don’t think your points have met silence. No-one is going to challenge your experience at the Crawley match as we weren’t there so have no personal knowledge of the incident. I do think you are incorrect in your assertions however.

Seeing as you’ve raised the subject again, have you or do you intend to raise the subject with NCC? If you have done already, have you had any type of reply. I admit I would be extremely surprised if you got a reply for at least a month.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:17 pm

It wasn’t you I was waiting for a reply from.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:44 pm

Dan wrote:It wasn’t you I was waiting for a reply from.


Ok Dan. I thought you were asking for a general reply rather than prodding one particular poster.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Marky Mark » Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:16 pm

Marky Mark wrote:With SAG being a function of a local authority then the discussions, decisions and reasons behind any decision they make should come under the Freedom Of Information act. I've made a FOI request to Nottinghamshire County Council for any SAG minutes involving the club in the last 24 months. They have 20 days to respond. I'll update when/if I get a reply.

The link to the request is here if anyone wants to keep an eye on it

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ng-1329984


For anyone's info who is interested, there are redacted minutes of 5 SAG meetings on this link now. I haven't been through them in any detail yet.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue Aug 23, 2022 7:05 pm

Marky Mark wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:With SAG being a function of a local authority then the discussions, decisions and reasons behind any decision they make should come under the Freedom Of Information act. I've made a FOI request to Nottinghamshire County Council for any SAG minutes involving the club in the last 24 months. They have 20 days to respond. I'll update when/if I get a reply.

The link to the request is here if anyone wants to keep an eye on it

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ng-1329984


For anyone's info who is interested, there are redacted minutes of 5 SAG meetings on this link now. I haven't been through them in any detail yet.


It would appear that there has been extensive discussion around the gate and as suspected there is a consensus of opinion that current powers to close it aren’t sufficient. Mention has been made of applying for a gating order but that would not normally be financed by NCC with the burden possibly falling on the club. The police emergency powers are thought to be insufficient given the risk is known in advance and the frequency of closure.

I personally think that closing the gate is sensible on occasions but maybe the processing has also been OTT sometimes. I also think a gating order will be granted but due process must be followed which doesn’t appear to be the case so far.

So to sum up, anyone who feels strongly about it should maybe contact NCC as suggested earlier.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Dan » Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:26 pm

The only thing stopping me doing anything is the club getting any financial punishment.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:07 am

It wouldn’t be a financial punishment as such Dan, as in a fine or similar for previous events but it would probably be a hefty bill to pay for the correct order.

If the situation carries on as it is with the gate being shut as and when, there will be no cost. Unfortunately though it appears there is no authority to close it and the club could technically be fined if enforcement action is taken by NCC. I don’t think there is any chance enforcement action will be taken as there is a clear need for the gate to be closed on occasions. That situation would change if someone persisted with a complaint as NCC have a statutory duty to police footpaths and could be criticised for not doing so. I think they would fall back on the public interest defence and argue action shouldn’t be taken due to clear public order issues. Alternatively they may just force the club down the expensive gating order route to kill any political comeback.

Whatever the outcome it would appear that you are correct around the legality of the closure which is something we have always agreed upon. The only variation is what, if anything, should be done about it.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby part time pete » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:45 am

Surely the best option is to have the gate ‘policed’ by a common sense person.

Just let through folk who you know are not trouble makers.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Aug 24, 2022 6:54 am

part time pete wrote:Surely the best option is to have the gate ‘policed’ by a common sense person.

Just let through folk who you know are not trouble makers.


In theory Pete, I would agree. The problem comes when those who you think may cause trouble take umbridge when they see others being let through. It would take a very strong personality to stand up to the resulting abuse/threats.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:44 am

Having read the below document costs are clearly not met by the club but by the local community safety partnership ie the ratepayers.

Ongoing costs and the cost of operating the gate during times of closure would also be met by ratepayers and there is a whole host of alternative measures which have to be considered first together with extensive consultation processes. There are also provisions to refuse gating orders if it unfairly disadvantages people with mobility issues. This would probably mean separate arrangements for people with those issues and how would that be policed?

I cannot see how this cost could be justified particularly during the current economic climate.

The solution probably lies with either the removal of the public right of way or diverting it. Again those processes are complex and expensive.

Enjoy the read.

https://www.nottinghamshire.gov.uk/medi ... _guide.pdf
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby part time pete » Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:31 am

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
part time pete wrote:Surely the best option is to have the gate ‘policed’ by a common sense person.

Just let through folk who you know are not trouble makers.


In theory Pete, I would agree. The problem comes when those who you think may cause trouble take umbridge when they see others being let through. It would take a very strong personality to stand up to the resulting abuse/threats.


A guy with a police uniform on would be the best bet.
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Re: Sheffield Utd, pre-season behind closed doors game, Tues

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:09 pm

part time pete wrote:
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:
part time pete wrote:Surely the best option is to have the gate ‘policed’ by a common sense person.

Just let through folk who you know are not trouble makers.


In theory Pete, I would agree. The problem comes when those who you think may cause trouble take umbridge when they see others being let through. It would take a very strong personality to stand up to the resulting abuse/threats.


A guy with a police uniform on would be the best bet.


Ok but he/she would be paid for by the club (on private property) and I could almost guarantee he/she would end up arresting someone most matches and have to leave the gate locked while the prisoner was dealt with. That in turn could mean extra restrictions by SAG for the increased number of arrests at the ground. That may alter if supporters were consistently arrested but one acquittal at court and it’s a whole new ball game (see what I did there :D :D )

This really does seem like one of those conundrums with no easy or cheap answer which is probably why it’s been allowed to rumble on. Until someone really presses the issue, I suspect that no solution will be put in place. Perhaps allowing sleeping dogs to lie is not a bad idea.
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