MTFCMusings wrote:Rob wrote:MTFCMusings wrote:Rob wrote:MTFCMusings wrote:What is the first eleven though Rob in your eyes? Only four players have started all of our wins.
I think that depends on who we are playing and whether we are at home. I think Hewitt is our best RWB so would always play him there. I'd also prefer to see Hawkins up front. With that in mind surely yoy can see the logic in wanting another CB? We won on Saturday because we played Hawkins up front., I'd play him there tomorrow
I can see your logic yes but I don’t agree with you. We’ve won three games where Hawkins didn’t play up front. Also I would say going up there for the last few minutes is completely different to starting there for the whole game. The team wouldn’t be able to press in the same way. The only game Hawkins started up front, we lost (admittedly he scored, but from a set piece where he would’ve been in the box anyway)
Yes, we very much disagree, which is fine. On Hawkins, if he was used as a striker I'm not sure I'd start him every game. I also think that whilst he does a job at CB, there are better, more experienced CB's out there.
Fair enough. I don’t disagree with your last point either, but so far I think he’s been very good this season.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:I get having a small squad and can see the benefits of it. However if you are going down that route, you need specialist players for your main positions.
In our case, Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions. Hewitt was brought to the club as a right back/wing back and is our best player there. Harbottle was brought to the club as a young loanee to learn his trade and was not expected to start most games. Even without injuries or suspensions that means that one centre half would not be a recognised player in that position and we would be weakening the right side of the defence by not playing Hewitt there. Additionally Harbottle has been playing on the left of the three despite being predominantly right footed again potentially diminishing his performances.
By signing a left sided centre half the whole balance of the defence could easily be restored with Hewitt playing in his best position and Harbottle playing with his naturally favoured foot in the right berth. That would still allow Nigel his to have his fussy out by playing any one of a number of players out of position at the centre of a three. I would also agree that we could probably get through with occasional fill ins due to injury or suspensions.
That would only increase the squad size by one player which should be affordable.
MTFCMusings wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:I get having a small squad and can see the benefits of it. However if you are going down that route, you need specialist players for your main positions.
In our case, Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions. Hewitt was brought to the club as a right back/wing back and is our best player there. Harbottle was brought to the club as a young loanee to learn his trade and was not expected to start most games. Even without injuries or suspensions that means that one centre half would not be a recognised player in that position and we would be weakening the right side of the defence by not playing Hewitt there. Additionally Harbottle has been playing on the left of the three despite being predominantly right footed again potentially diminishing his performances.
By signing a left sided centre half the whole balance of the defence could easily be restored with Hewitt playing in his best position and Harbottle playing with his naturally favoured foot in the right berth. That would still allow Nigel his to have his fussy out by playing any one of a number of players out of position at the centre of a three. I would also agree that we could probably get through with occasional fill ins due to injury or suspensions.
That would only increase the squad size by one player which should be affordable.
When signed Hewitt was described as mainly a defender and someone who can cover several positions. That’s exactly what he’s done whilst he’s been here.
The issue continues to be that posters other people who are no the manager or coaching staff of Mansfield Town don’t recognise Perch, Hawkins or O’Toole as centre halves, whilst the manager and coaching staff of Mansfield Town do. The debate I suspect will go on and on.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:MTFCMusings wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:I get having a small squad and can see the benefits of it. However if you are going down that route, you need specialist players for your main positions.
In our case, Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions. Hewitt was brought to the club as a right back/wing back and is our best player there. Harbottle was brought to the club as a young loanee to learn his trade and was not expected to start most games. Even without injuries or suspensions that means that one centre half would not be a recognised player in that position and we would be weakening the right side of the defence by not playing Hewitt there. Additionally Harbottle has been playing on the left of the three despite being predominantly right footed again potentially diminishing his performances.
By signing a left sided centre half the whole balance of the defence could easily be restored with Hewitt playing in his best position and Harbottle playing with his naturally favoured foot in the right berth. That would still allow Nigel his to have his fussy out by playing any one of a number of players out of position at the centre of a three. I would also agree that we could probably get through with occasional fill ins due to injury or suspensions.
That would only increase the squad size by one player which should be affordable.
When signed Hewitt was described as mainly a defender and someone who can cover several positions. That’s exactly what he’s done whilst he’s been here.
The issue continues to be that posters other people who are no the manager or coaching staff of Mansfield Town don’t recognise Perch, Hawkins or O’Toole as centre halves, whilst the manager and coaching staff of Mansfield Town do. The debate I suspect will go on and on.
Sorry Mussy but you are wrong. It illustrates that you simply don’t understand our viewpoint which is that we don’t recognise the three players as being centre halves who are capable of being regular members of a top 3 team over the course of a season. That is certainly my opinion and I’m sure it’s shared by Rob, Yorkie et al and it is a world away from being someone who is capable of merely playing at centre half.
MTFCMusings wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:MTFCMusings wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:I get having a small squad and can see the benefits of it. However if you are going down that route, you need specialist players for your main positions.
In our case, Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions. Hewitt was brought to the club as a right back/wing back and is our best player there. Harbottle was brought to the club as a young loanee to learn his trade and was not expected to start most games. Even without injuries or suspensions that means that one centre half would not be a recognised player in that position and we would be weakening the right side of the defence by not playing Hewitt there. Additionally Harbottle has been playing on the left of the three despite being predominantly right footed again potentially diminishing his performances.
By signing a left sided centre half the whole balance of the defence could easily be restored with Hewitt playing in his best position and Harbottle playing with his naturally favoured foot in the right berth. That would still allow Nigel his to have his fussy out by playing any one of a number of players out of position at the centre of a three. I would also agree that we could probably get through with occasional fill ins due to injury or suspensions.
That would only increase the squad size by one player which should be affordable.
When signed Hewitt was described as mainly a defender and someone who can cover several positions. That’s exactly what he’s done whilst he’s been here.
The issue continues to be that posters other people who are no the manager or coaching staff of Mansfield Town don’t recognise Perch, Hawkins or O’Toole as centre halves, whilst the manager and coaching staff of Mansfield Town do. The debate I suspect will go on and on.
Sorry Mussy but you are wrong. It illustrates that you simply don’t understand our viewpoint which is that we don’t recognise the three players as being centre halves who are capable of being regular members of a top 3 team over the course of a season. That is certainly my opinion and I’m sure it’s shared by Rob, Yorkie et al and it is a world away from being someone who is capable of merely playing at centre half.
If that’s what you meant then that’s what you should have said Sandy
You’ve typed above ‘Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions’.
Also I don’t want to speak on Robs behalf but I don’t think that was his point either, as he said if our best eleven stays fit all season we will be fine, so at least one of the three he is happy with.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:MTFCMusings wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:MTFCMusings wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:I get having a small squad and can see the benefits of it. However if you are going down that route, you need specialist players for your main positions.
In our case, Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions. Hewitt was brought to the club as a right back/wing back and is our best player there. Harbottle was brought to the club as a young loanee to learn his trade and was not expected to start most games. Even without injuries or suspensions that means that one centre half would not be a recognised player in that position and we would be weakening the right side of the defence by not playing Hewitt there. Additionally Harbottle has been playing on the left of the three despite being predominantly right footed again potentially diminishing his performances.
By signing a left sided centre half the whole balance of the defence could easily be restored with Hewitt playing in his best position and Harbottle playing with his naturally favoured foot in the right berth. That would still allow Nigel his to have his fussy out by playing any one of a number of players out of position at the centre of a three. I would also agree that we could probably get through with occasional fill ins due to injury or suspensions.
That would only increase the squad size by one player which should be affordable.
When signed Hewitt was described as mainly a defender and someone who can cover several positions. That’s exactly what he’s done whilst he’s been here.
The issue continues to be that posters other people who are no the manager or coaching staff of Mansfield Town don’t recognise Perch, Hawkins or O’Toole as centre halves, whilst the manager and coaching staff of Mansfield Town do. The debate I suspect will go on and on.
Sorry Mussy but you are wrong. It illustrates that you simply don’t understand our viewpoint which is that we don’t recognise the three players as being centre halves who are capable of being regular members of a top 3 team over the course of a season. That is certainly my opinion and I’m sure it’s shared by Rob, Yorkie et al and it is a world away from being someone who is capable of merely playing at centre half.
If that’s what you meant then that’s what you should have said Sandy
You’ve typed above ‘Nigel has decided to play 3 centre halves but has only Harbottle and Hewitt who are recognised in those positions’.
Also I don’t want to speak on Robs behalf but I don’t think that was his point either, as he said if our best eleven stays fit all season we will be fine, so at least one of the three he is happy with.
I thought that’s what I’ve been saying all along Mussy. Playing someone in a position on an occasional basis doesn’t make it their position and the one recognised as the position they’ve played in for the majority of their careers. I seem to remember Keith Cassel taking over in goal but it didn’t make him a goalie. Word play aside, would you have brought any of those three as new players into the club in those those positions and expected us to get automatic promotion?
In respect of Rob’s comments I don’t think being fine meant we would be promoted. Additionally to expect to keep all of your first team injury and suspension free is totally unrealistic. So on that basis alone how could we possibly be fine?
Perhaps you are correct about clarity and when I said we only have Hewitt and Harbottle who are recognised at centre half, I should have said who haven’t been turned into makeshift centre halves.
Rob wrote:To be fair I said probably and obviously with the unlikely caveat that we get no injuries. Thats based primarily on our superb midfield.
MTFCMusings wrote:Rob wrote:To be fair I said probably and obviously with the unlikely caveat that we get no injuries. Thats based primarily on our superb midfield.
You didn’t say probably, but I accept your revision
Anyway I think we have talked this topic to death, or at least I feel that way anyway.
Richard Cranium wrote:Just pointing out your on nearly 13k posts and they're all raspberrys
broomo wrote:Sandy keeps saying the 88 points from 44 games is irrelevant. It's not, far from it. It has shown we can be incredibly consistent over a long period of games (2 short of a season).
Why am I confident we'll go one better than last season?
We can probably afford to lose 12 games between now and the end of the season (36 games) and we've shown no sign of doing that.
We've only lost 9 out of the last 44 (league games) and with our makeshift defence with 1 specialist centre half across 2 half seasons (Rawson and now Harbottle) we have a PLUS 29 goal difference.
Already this season we've had injuries or sickness in defence to Hewitt, Harbottle, Perch, Hawkins and O'Toole (not to mention Hartigan, Boateng, Oates, Quinn and Akins) yet the squad has coped, mainly down to being versatile and dare I say tight knit)
19 wins and 5 draws, or 18 wins and 8 draws from 36 games and we're there.
In other words if can beat every team below us at least once we need 8 points from 18 games against the rest.
After tomorrow we've got 18 games at home.
Our last 18 home games? 15 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat.
Whisper it quietly
Richard Cranium wrote:Just pointing out your on nearly 13k posts and they're all raspberrys
broomo wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:broomo wrote:Since the start of 2022..
We finished last season with 46 points from 24 games. Over the whole season that would have been 88 points and we'd have gone up as champions.
If you add this seasons 6 games...
We would have 55 points from the last 30 games. Over the whole season that would have been 84 points, joint top.
But yeah, we've got problems up front and in defence.
I could take it back to the 30th October 2021. We finished the season with 70 points from 32 games. Over the whole season that would have been 100 points and up as Champions.
If you add this seasons 6 games we have 79 points from the last 38 games. Over the whole season that would have been 95 points and up as Champions.
In that time we've also accrued 52 points out of 57 at home.
Problems everywhere?
Seeing as we are talking about this season’s squad maybe we should look at what IT has achieved. That’s 9 points from 6 games also known as 1.5 points per game. Equate that over 46 games and I make that 69 points over the season. Will that get us top 5? No it won’t. Will that get us into the playoffs? No it won’t. We can’t look backwards to previous seasons only at where we are at this moment in time.
You may be correct Broomo and this squad may over achieve and take us to the promised land but in a much improved league I very much doubt it.
You have to stop thinking that everyone is anti Clough and want him gone. That is not the purpose of these debates but rather how we think our season is going and what the prospects of promotion are.
No one wants to see Nigel fail and it’s in all of our interests that he doesn’t. It’s not about how many records Nigel breaks as a manager or even if he’s good or not. It’s simply about which League Mansfield Town Football Club play in next year and our thoughts as to how the club is progressing. The club is paramount to us, not the management team, not the players and if push comes to shove not even the owners. Understand that and you may just understand the fans.
I've said before it's such a cheap shot and diminishes both the thought, statistics and general football knowledge I put into my posts to dismiss it as every time I respond it's because I think everyone is anti Clough.
I don't think that at all.
Sometimes I can see where someone who is anti Clough is coming from but more often than not it's pure hyperbole and based on very little.
We're currently 2 points better off than we were at this stage last season and we have another 8 games until the end of the equivalent of last years horror run.
I'm absolutely convinced we'll be at least 8-10 points better off after the same 14 game spell.
While I understand it's unlikely we'll repeat last years incredible run from there on in, I do think this squad is capable of going on several 3 or 4 game winning streaks and I think that cushion will see us there or thereabouts.
This isn't exclusively about me defending Nigel, I'm also defending what I see as a very strong squad of players.
broomo wrote:broomo wrote:Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:broomo wrote:Since the start of 2022..
We finished last season with 46 points from 24 games. Over the whole season that would have been 88 points and we'd have gone up as champions.
If you add this seasons 6 games...
We would have 55 points from the last 30 games. Over the whole season that would have been 84 points, joint top.
But yeah, we've got problems up front and in defence.
I could take it back to the 30th October 2021. We finished the season with 70 points from 32 games. Over the whole season that would have been 100 points and up as Champions.
If you add this seasons 6 games we have 79 points from the last 38 games. Over the whole season that would have been 95 points and up as Champions.
In that time we've also accrued 52 points out of 57 at home.
Problems everywhere?
Seeing as we are talking about this season’s squad maybe we should look at what IT has achieved. That’s 9 points from 6 games also known as 1.5 points per game. Equate that over 46 games and I make that 69 points over the season. Will that get us top 5? No it won’t. Will that get us into the playoffs? No it won’t. We can’t look backwards to previous seasons only at where we are at this moment in time.
You may be correct Broomo and this squad may over achieve and take us to the promised land but in a much improved league I very much doubt it.
You have to stop thinking that everyone is anti Clough and want him gone. That is not the purpose of these debates but rather how we think our season is going and what the prospects of promotion are.
No one wants to see Nigel fail and it’s in all of our interests that he doesn’t. It’s not about how many records Nigel breaks as a manager or even if he’s good or not. It’s simply about which League Mansfield Town Football Club play in next year and our thoughts as to how the club is progressing. The club is paramount to us, not the management team, not the players and if push comes to shove not even the owners. Understand that and you may just understand the fans.
I've said before it's such a cheap shot and diminishes both the thought, statistics and general football knowledge I put into my posts to dismiss it as every time I respond it's because I think everyone is anti Clough.
I don't think that at all.
Sometimes I can see where someone who is anti Clough is coming from but more often than not it's pure hyperbole and based on very little.
We're currently 2 points better off than we were at this stage last season and we have another 8 games until the end of the equivalent of last years horror run.
I'm absolutely convinced we'll be at least 8-10 points better off after the same 14 game spell.
While I understand it's unlikely we'll repeat last years incredible run from there on in, I do think this squad is capable of going on several 3 or 4 game winning streaks and I think that cushion will see us there or thereabouts.
This isn't exclusively about me defending Nigel, I'm also defending what I see as a very strong squad of players.
Bump.
Currently 13 points better off with 2 to play.
Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:Broomo
We did well today against a very poor Barrow side who have just fallen to their 4th successive defeat. We were down to the bare bones and had a goalkeeping coach as a named substitute. Off the top of my head at least two of our defenders picked up bookings (for preventing breakaway runs) and Clarke was extremely fortunate not to get sent off.
We have once more picked up injuries to a central defender and even you must admit we are quickly running out of options.
You appear to be either totally missing the point or being deliberately obstinate that the squad cannot keep missing this amount of players particularly when all of the bookings start to lead to suspensions. We are only 12 games into the season and can’t put a full bench out and not for the first time. As the weather deteriorates, I’m sure our injury list will get longer.
We are nowhere near the end of the season and the effect of our shortcomings has barely had an opportunity to materialise yet. I still firmly believe that they will.
Come on here and crow when you are proven correct but at the moment, judging by the state of our very depleted squad, I don’t think you will be waking many up early in the mornings.
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