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Season ticket pricing (update: 4450 sold so far)

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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Stag95 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:13 am

adamstag wrote:
kevin kents tasce wrote:Not to mention running costs including extra staffing and reduced revenue from the advertising boards.


Exactly, doing up the bishop st in league 2 makes absolutely no business sense what so ever, we’d be losing out if anything.

Keep it as it is and if we go up do something about it

I disagree, better to be prepared for when we do eventually go up. By the time we do need it we’ll be missing out on revenue. It’s not as if it’ll just pop up overnight anyway, it’ll be 1-2 years down the line if we made a decision now.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Sneag » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:16 am

kevin kents tasce wrote:Rob, you are wrong.

Andy is spot on. Yes build it, but not until we need it.

JR has been really clear since his early days of ownership that he wants the club to be able to run in its own merits. I’m not sure whereabouts the capital is supposed to come from in order to build a new stand? I assume people are just expecting JR to pay it out of his own pocket?

Once the club can evidence that it will make more than it costs, that is the time to do it.

That means at least League 1 football on a regular basis. Something we haven’t achieved if over 40 years


That's not how you expand a business. You need capacity to expand into, you don't wait until you can't service your customers before adding capacity.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:25 am

I'd be very surprised if plans aren't ready to go once we pass a certain benchmark. Given that the stated plan is to be in the Championship at some point in the future then part of the plan to monetise that has to be development of Bishop Street at a certain point along the way because you cant just drop the current capacity and infrastructure into the Championship. There's no way a club with a state of the art training centre doesn't have a plan to develop a derelict 25% of the ground space, and potentially the 2nd largest part of the ground capacity, at some point, any CEO worth their salt will have income growth as part of their plans. It's not happening yet because we're not at the point that the cost benefit analysis that the club will have done says that it's financially worth it yet.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby arsene wengers coat » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:58 am

Capital expenditure (costs to the club) is only 1 dimension of the business case.

There is operational expenditure (running cost), also a consideration.

However, you'd have to look at this cost against life-time revenue generation, over say, a 40 year time horizon.

Over that period, the stand would likely generate a positive 'net' cost/profit.

But off set against all that is the financial minutai. Generally developments aren't paid for up front in cash. We could create a delivery model that suits our cashflow.

We could Design it in a way that it could generate non match day revenue. It might also improve the 'sale' when marketing the club to players etc. The swell in support might also generate more support filling the mill more often.

For a supposedly shrewd business man I am constantly aghast at how it's been left. My company is overseeing a similar redevelopment/regen project at Bloomfield road where all this was forecasted.

Smashing the 4000 ST mark is a big for us. Now let's capitalise on away fan ticket sales and the casual walk up fans. Do the Bishop.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby zod » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:08 am

Spiritater wrote:
Rob wrote:We keep having this discussion, frankly it's absurd the club haven't done anything with it and makes no sense whatsoever. The club will pay a heavy price for not doing it should we have another successful season. I'd guess not having that extra capacity has cost the club over £1m in lost gate receipts since JR took over.

:hysteria: :hysteria: :hysteria:
It would cost a lot more than 1m to build a new stand.


A covered steel frame with a few blocks of concrete to bolt seats to wouldn't cost a million quid.
There are companies who fabricate the whole thing off-site.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby mousemousemouse » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:17 am

zod wrote:
Spiritater wrote:
Rob wrote:We keep having this discussion, frankly it's absurd the club haven't done anything with it and makes no sense whatsoever. The club will pay a heavy price for not doing it should we have another successful season. I'd guess not having that extra capacity has cost the club over £1m in lost gate receipts since JR took over.

:hysteria: :hysteria: :hysteria:
It would cost a lot more than 1m to build a new stand.


A covered steel frame with a few blocks of concrete to bolt seats to wouldn't cost a million quid.
There are companies who fabricate the whole thing off-site.


How long would that be fit for purpose?

We've sold out the home end a few times this season, but usually the last few tickets were sold a few days before the game.

Personally, I don't think we have the "demand" for a new stand yet, but I feel we would look at something more future proof if we built something new. No point in spending money new, to then need to revelop it in 2-3 years
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:24 am

arsene wengers coat wrote:Capital expenditure (costs to the club) is only 1 dimension of the business case.

There is operational expenditure (running cost), also a consideration.

However, you'd have to look at this cost against life-time revenue generation, over say, a 40 year time horizon.

Over that period, the stand would likely generate a positive 'net' cost/profit.

But off set against all that is the financial minutai. Generally developments aren't paid for up front in cash. We could create a delivery model that suits our cashflow.

We could Design it in a way that it could generate non match day revenue. It might also improve the 'sale' when marketing the club to players etc. The swell in support might also generate more support filling the mill more often.

For a supposedly shrewd business man I am constantly aghast at how it's been left. My company is overseeing a similar redevelopment/regen project at Bloomfield road where all this was forecasted.

Smashing the 4000 ST mark is a big for us. Now let's capitalise on away fan ticket sales and the casual walk up fans. Do the Bishop.


The only thing that is missing from that is league ladder position. We are still in League Two, (I think) we are the longest occupants of the 24 teams in it, we haven't been in League One for 20 seasons. Yes the plan is to go higher, but it has been for the 10 or so years that JR has been the owner. 4,000 season tickets is an amazing achievement, but how many of those will renew if we fail to go up this season? We are at bursting point in a number of ways, the ONE thing that is stopping us is league position. We want the Bishop St stand to be a net contributor to income in a higher league, not a financial weight around our neck in League Two, or god forbid lower.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Captain Cunno » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:31 am

Having home fans behind both goals would be great though wouldn't it :)
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Paulstag » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:32 am

NEStag wrote:
HitchcocksShins wrote:
Tre Cool wrote:I'm debating whether to get a season ticket last minute or see if there will be a QLE membership. I want to be a part of this record breaking number but I'll miss 6 games before Christmas which is the only thing putting me off. My QLE ticket would cost £14.40 per game. It bugs me that I won't get full value of the ticket! :lol:


I think we need something in place for fans to organize amongst ourselves where we can arrange "borrowing" a ST for matches that you'd miss. Just fans paying eachother reduced prices on ST for the day. Obviously the club would never sign off on this, it'd have to be grass roots and fan driven.

Surely having the seat occupied and the bit of revenue generated from food/ drink etc is better than a no show.


This is what the club website says. I wonder if anyone has ever asked them? I'd like to pass mine on as I can't get to a lot of home games.

3.3. You may only resell or transfer the Season Ticket to a Guest with the express written consent of the Club given at the Club’s absolute discretion. No such resale or transfer will be permitted except where the same takes place in respect of an individual match and in consideration of no payment or benefit in excess of the face value of a ticket to that Match and such transfer does not take place during the course of any business or for the purpose of facilitating any third party’s business save for any secondary ticketing operator expressly approved by the Club.

Such resale or transfer to any Guest is hereby provided to be subject to the Terms and Conditions of Entry which will (save for any rights to transfer under this clause) apply to that Guest as if he/she was the original purchaser of the Season Ticket (and you must inform the Guest of this).


My wife was using my season ticket last season, we put an email into the club to make them aware and Lynn replied that it was ok.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby StagInHucknall » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:40 am

Oxford Utd have a three sided ground 12,500 capacity. Looking at their attendances last season they never reached full once. Rarely came close.

As far as I’m aware Mansfield didn’t sell out. Maybe once for Forest Green?

The last thing I’d like to see is them build the 4th stand and attendances drop again.

Let’s get consistently high attendances first before coming back to this. It takes time to build your fan base and keep hold of them. It doesn’t happen in half a season/one season after one good campaign.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby zod » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:41 am

mousemousemouse wrote:
How long would that be fit for purpose?


Ian Greaves stand is still up.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:54 am

Marky Mark wrote:
arsene wengers coat wrote:Capital expenditure (costs to the club) is only 1 dimension of the business case.

There is operational expenditure (running cost), also a consideration.

However, you'd have to look at this cost against life-time revenue generation, over say, a 40 year time horizon.

Over that period, the stand would likely generate a positive 'net' cost/profit.

But off set against all that is the financial minutai. Generally developments aren't paid for up front in cash. We could create a delivery model that suits our cashflow.

We could Design it in a way that it could generate non match day revenue. It might also improve the 'sale' when marketing the club to players etc. The swell in support might also generate more support filling the mill more often.

For a supposedly shrewd business man I am constantly aghast at how it's been left. My company is overseeing a similar redevelopment/regen project at Bloomfield road where all this was forecasted.

Smashing the 4000 ST mark is a big for us. Now let's capitalise on away fan ticket sales and the casual walk up fans. Do the Bishop.


The only thing that is missing from that is league ladder position. We are still in League Two, (I think) we are the longest occupants of the 24 teams in it, we haven't been in League One for 20 seasons. Yes the plan is to go higher, but it has been for the 10 or so years that JR has been the owner. 4,000 season tickets is an amazing achievement, but how many of those will renew if we fail to go up this season? We are at bursting point in a number of ways, the ONE thing that is stopping us is league position. We want the Bishop St stand to be a net contributor to income in a higher league, not a financial weight around our neck in League Two, or god forbid lower.


Very loose analysis, the second last full season before COVID - Luton, Wycombe, Accrington and Coventry went up.

Luton went up 10% (840 extra fans per game)
Accrington went up 40% (785 fans per game)
Coventry went up 34% (3,100 fans per game)
Wycombe went up 14.5% (684 fans per game)

(Wycombe are probably the best comparison as their attendances in League Two was 4,705 (400 lower than our average last season), their average attendance in the following season in League One was 14.5% higher, at 5,389.

Applying a 14.5% increase to our attendances of 5,107 last season would mean we would attract another 715 per game (16,444 across the season). 715 fans x 23 games x £10 average entrance price (the most a season ticket holder will pay is £16 per game, the least is £0) = £165k extra gate revenue. Even if every extra fan paid £25 to get in it would be £400k extra for the season. On those figures it'd take 5-10 years to pay back the investment for a new stand in League One, much longer in League 2
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Stag95 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:03 am

I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby arsene wengers coat » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:10 am

What happened when Luton, Wycombe and Coventry all made it to the Championship, Markey?
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:33 am

arsene wengers coat wrote:What happened when Luton, Wycombe and Coventry all made it to the Championship, Markey?


Covid affects the next 2 seasons after that so difficult to get a level. Luton's average attendance last season in the Championship was 9,857, 13% higher than their promotion season in League Two (8,676) - 1,181 extra fans per game from League Two to Championship. Coventry's attendance doubled - 9,500 to 19,000
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:45 am

Stag95 wrote:I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.


The average attendance of our last season in League One (4,800) was lower than our average attendance last year - that season had QPR, Bristol City, Cardiff, Chesterfield, Notts County, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Peterborough in it. The following season average was 5,200 - so we get a higher attendance when we are doing well in League Two than we do when we dont do well in League One. The following season the average was 4,100.

There are patterns to our attendances (averages):

Doing well in League 2: 4,900 (DF play off season), early 5,000's (03/04 and 21/22)
Doing poorly in League One: 4,800 (2002/3)
Treading water in League 2: 3,000 - 4,000 (2013-2018)
Poor in League 2: 2,800 (relegation season)

Theoretical - middle of the road in League One: 5,800 (doing well +15% like Wycombe)

I can definitely see why we're not adding 2,000+ capacity to an 8,000 capacity stadium at the moment when our average gates have never been more than 60% of it's existing capacity.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Amberheart » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:14 am

Stag95 wrote:
adamstag wrote:
kevin kents tasce wrote:Not to mention running costs including extra staffing and reduced revenue from the advertising boards.


Exactly, doing up the bishop st in league 2 makes absolutely no business sense what so ever, we’d be losing out if anything.

Keep it as it is and if we go up do something about it

I disagree, better to be prepared for when we do eventually go up. By the time we do need it we’ll be missing out on revenue. It’s not as if it’ll just pop up overnight anyway, it’ll be 1-2 years down the line if we made a decision now.

I agree build it now . Building costs increase every year
We’ve been waiting 20 years
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:57 am

Marky Mark wrote:
Stag95 wrote:I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.


The average attendance of our last season in League One (4,800) was lower than our average attendance last year - that season had QPR, Bristol City, Cardiff, Chesterfield, Notts County, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Peterborough in it. The following season average was 5,200 - so we get a higher attendance when we are doing well in League Two than we do when we dont do well in League One. The following season the average was 4,100.

There are patterns to our attendances (averages):

Doing well in League 2: 4,900 (DF play off season), early 5,000's (03/04 and 21/22)
Doing poorly in League One: 4,800 (2002/3)
Treading water in League 2: 3,000 - 4,000 (2013-2018)
Poor in League 2: 2,800 (relegation season)

Theoretical - middle of the road in League One: 5,800 (doing well +15% like Wycombe)

I can definitely see why we're not adding 2,000+ capacity to an 8,000 capacity stadium at the moment when our average gates have never been more than 60% of it's existing capacity.


Firstly using previous attendance figures is clearly flawed given the unprecedented season ticket sales this summer. Secondly the increase in capacity isn't just for home fans. Thirdly this isn't just about economics, it's about having a 3 sided ground which is an embarrassment to the club. Fourth a new stand will ease congestion in other areas, leading to higher sales in the kiosks. Fifth, grants will help the finances of building a simple safe standing stand, had we done this ten years ago it would probably have paid for itself by now.. Finally, if we have a good season not having done the stand will cost the club hundreds of thousands in lost revenue.

We will be locking home fans out next season if we challenge and must future proof now, sadly it's too late for the coming season.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:38 pm

Rob wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:
Stag95 wrote:I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.


The average attendance of our last season in League One (4,800) was lower than our average attendance last year - that season had QPR, Bristol City, Cardiff, Chesterfield, Notts County, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Peterborough in it. The following season average was 5,200 - so we get a higher attendance when we are doing well in League Two than we do when we dont do well in League One. The following season the average was 4,100.

There are patterns to our attendances (averages):

Doing well in League 2: 4,900 (DF play off season), early 5,000's (03/04 and 21/22)
Doing poorly in League One: 4,800 (2002/3)
Treading water in League 2: 3,000 - 4,000 (2013-2018)
Poor in League 2: 2,800 (relegation season)

Theoretical - middle of the road in League One: 5,800 (doing well +15% like Wycombe)

I can definitely see why we're not adding 2,000+ capacity to an 8,000 capacity stadium at the moment when our average gates have never been more than 60% of it's existing capacity.


Firstly using previous attendance figures is clearly flawed given the unprecedented season ticket sales this summer. Secondly the increase in capacity isn't just for home fans. Thirdly this isn't just about economics, it's about having a 3 sided ground which is an embarrassment to the club. Fourth a new stand will ease congestion in other areas, leading to higher sales in the kiosks. Fifth, grants will help the finances of building a simple safe standing stand, had we done this ten years ago it would probably have paid for itself by now.. Finally, if we have a good season not having done the stand will cost the club hundreds of thousands in lost revenue.

We will be locking home fans out next season if we challenge and must future proof now, sadly it's too late for the coming season.


Rob, these have all been dubunked.
Previous attendance figures are fairly robust, they point to attendance ceilings at almost all levels of where we've been for the last 20+ years. Definitely more robust than hoping and guessing.
Firstly: More season tickets doesn't naturally equate to higher attendances, the only thing it certainly means is more up front cash for the club. How many of the 4,000 season ticket holders didn't attend a match last season? We've never averaged over 5,500 whichever league we've been in in the last 40 years, whether we've sold 0 season tickets or 4,000 season tickets so the additional season tickets are most likely coming from within the existing supporter base. The 1,200 additional season ticket holders wont translate to 1,200 additional supporters, 100 at the most. I'm giving the club less money than I did last season, I'd imagine most are. Some are already talking about sharing season tickets.
Secondly: It doesn't matter who the increased capacity is for if we've never averaged over 5,500 in an 8,000 capacity stadium. Yes we might sell out once or twice, but we might also get 84 away fans. It balances itself out.
Thirdly: Economics doesn't matter if it's someone else's money.
Fourthly: Will spreading existing fans out into more space generate enough additional kiosk income to pay for the extra overheads to run the extra space, not including the £1m+ to build. The current challenges are about crowd management, not capacity.
Fifth: Putting money into developing the Bish 10 years ago would likely have come at the expense of funding promotion out of the conference. Given that our attendances are still in line with what we'd expect them to be v's our league ladder position it is likely that it would still be a liability on our balance sheet, with little incremental benefit, meaning that Clough has less leeway in the transfer market today.
Finally: Having a Bishop St stand would not make hundreds of thousands of additional revenue per season. In League Two it would make no additional revenue as our attendances dont historically increase over above what can already be handled. A good season in League One would increase attendances by around 15%, which would mean additional gate revenue between £100k (worst case) and £400k (best case) - not accounting for what it costs to run it.

I'm not against developing the Bish, I would like it done if only for aesthetic purposes only but it'd be a drain on the finances right now, and I'd rather have a team fighting for success than a mid-table one with a shiny new stand so fans can buy a sausage roll 4 minutes quicker.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:55 pm

I don't see a connect between investment in the squad and the ground Mark. JR invested heavily in the squad at the same time as buying the ground and developing RH. If JR had said I'm not building a new stand because it will mean the Managers budget is restricted then you'd have a point, but he hasn't and it is likely the two are very much separate. Clealy extra capacity will increase revenue. The Derby match alone would have seen a new 2k Bish full, approx 40k additional revenue for just one game.

Saying its about saving 4 mins for a sausage roll is pure hyperbole, the point I was making was more about people just not bothering to use the kiosks, you know that's true.

I'm surprised you've used the "it's not your money " argument. It wasn't my money that bought the ground off Haslam, that built RH, that gave Evans and DF big wage budgets - does that mean if we're not paying we're not entitled to an opinion? JR can clearly afford it and has talked about doing it many times. He knows it needs doing, my argument/opinion is that we are finally challenging, crowds are clearly on the up and now is absolutely the right time.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby kevin kents tasce » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:01 pm

You keep forgetting that there are running costs to the stand Rob in terms of staffing, elective, maintenance etc.

Also your income calculations are probably over estimated. The average cost of a ticket isn’t £20 (concessions bring it below) plus any profits are taxed.

I don’t understand the ‘not about economics’ comments. Of course it’s about economics.

Who is paying for this new stand and where are they taking the money from?
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby victor A block » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:08 pm

Marky Mark wrote:
Rob wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:
Stag95 wrote:I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.


The average attendance of our last season in League One (4,800) was lower than our average attendance last year - that season had QPR, Bristol City, Cardiff, Chesterfield, Notts County, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Peterborough in it. The following season average was 5,200 - so we get a higher attendance when we are doing well in League Two than we do when we dont do well in League One. The following season the average was 4,100.

There are patterns to our attendances (averages):

Doing well in League 2: 4,900 (DF play off season), early 5,000's (03/04 and 21/22)
Doing poorly in League One: 4,800 (2002/3)
Treading water in League 2: 3,000 - 4,000 (2013-2018)
Poor in League 2: 2,800 (relegation season)

Theoretical - middle of the road in League One: 5,800 (doing well +15% like Wycombe)

I can definitely see why we're not adding 2,000+ capacity to an 8,000 capacity stadium at the moment when our average gates have never been more than 60% of it's existing capacity.


Firstly using previous attendance figures is clearly flawed given the unprecedented season ticket sales this summer. Secondly the increase in capacity isn't just for home fans. Thirdly this isn't just about economics, it's about having a 3 sided ground which is an embarrassment to the club. Fourth a new stand will ease congestion in other areas, leading to higher sales in the kiosks. Fifth, grants will help the finances of building a simple safe standing stand, had we done this ten years ago it would probably have paid for itself by now.. Finally, if we have a good season not having done the stand will cost the club hundreds of thousands in lost revenue.

We will be locking home fans out next season if we challenge and must future proof now, sadly it's too late for the coming season.


Rob, these have all been dubunked.
Previous attendance figures are fairly robust, they point to attendance ceilings at almost all levels of where we've been for the last 20+ years. Definitely more robust than hoping and guessing.
Firstly: More season tickets doesn't naturally equate to higher attendances, the only thing it certainly means is more up front cash for the club. How many of the 4,000 season ticket holders didn't attend a match last season? We've never averaged over 5,500 whichever league we've been in in the last 40 years, whether we've sold 0 season tickets or 4,000 season tickets so the additional season tickets are most likely coming from within the existing supporter base. The 1,200 additional season ticket holders wont translate to 1,200 additional supporters, 100 at the most. I'm giving the club less money than I did last season, I'd imagine most are. Some are already talking about sharing season tickets.
Secondly: It doesn't matter who the increased capacity is for if we've never averaged over 5,500 in an 8,000 capacity stadium. Yes we might sell out once or twice, but we might also get 84 away fans. It balances itself out.
Thirdly: Economics doesn't matter if it's someone else's money.
Fourthly: Will spreading existing fans out into more space generate enough additional kiosk income to pay for the extra overheads to run the extra space, not including the £1m+ to build. The current challenges are about crowd management, not capacity.
Fifth: Putting money into developing the Bish 10 years ago would likely have come at the expense of funding promotion out of the conference. Given that our attendances are still in line with what we'd expect them to be v's our league ladder position it is likely that it would still be a liability on our balance sheet, with little incremental benefit, meaning that Clough has less leeway in the transfer market today.
Finally: Having a Bishop St stand would not make hundreds of thousands of additional revenue per season. In League Two it would make no additional revenue as our attendances dont historically increase over above what can already be handled. A good season in League One would increase attendances by around 15%, which would mean additional gate revenue between £100k (worst case) and £400k (best case) - not accounting for what it costs to run it.

I'm not against developing the Bish, I would like it done if only for aesthetic purposes only but it'd be a drain on the finances right now, and I'd rather have a team fighting for success than a mid-table one with a shiny new stand so fans can buy a sausage roll 4 minutes quicker.



Some good points here. Although its not just about attendance figures. Its also about getting more revenue per person who attends. In that regard, our offering is still extremely poor. For example, if we had a row of individual hospitality boxes, I'm pretty sure they would be taken up. As our ex Burton posters on here will know, they were selling these out for years, and not just in league 1. Their revenue, despite attendances over many years being only 60% of ours, was greater.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:09 pm

Rob wrote:I don't see a connect between investment in the squad and the ground Mark. JR invested heavily in the squad at the same time as buying the ground and developing RH. If JR had said I'm not building a new stand because it will mean the Managers budget is restricted then you'd have a point, but he hasn't and it is likely the two are very much separate. Clealy extra capacity will increase revenue. The Derby match alone would have seen a new 2k Bish full, approx 40k additional revenue for just one game.

Saying its about saving 4 mins for a sausage roll is pure hyperbole, the point I was making was more about people just not bothering to use the kiosks, you know that's true.

I'm surprised you've used the "it's not your money " argument. It wasn't my money that bought the ground off Haslam, that built RH, that gave Evans and DF big wage budgets - does that mean if we're not paying we're not entitled to an opinion? JR can clearly afford it and has talked about doing it many times. He knows it needs doing, my argument/opinion is that we are finally challenging, crowds are clearly on the up and now is absolutely the right time.


I was being flippant with the 'its not your money' comment - my point on that is that economics, at our level, are about as important as you can get, so it cant be dismissed. JR clearly wants the club to be more self standing and operate within what it earns, given the move to an external CEO model rather than a benefactor/CEO model. All of that said, I think it'd be a massive dereliction of duty if there were not plans in place ready to go with the Bish once the club had gone past a certain trigger point, whether that be league position, or average home support. I agree it looks awful, but I think our problems are more about crowd management than crowd capacity.
Last edited by Marky Mark on Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:14 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:You keep forgetting that there are running costs to the stand Rob in terms of staffing, elective, maintenance etc.

Also your income calculations are probably over estimated. The average cost of a ticket isn’t £20 (concessions bring it below) plus any profits are taxed.

I don’t understand the ‘not about economics’ comments. Of course it’s about economics.

Who is paying for this new stand and where are they taking the money from?


I think I read a few years ago that average ticket price paid (total gate receipts divided by total gate) was between £10-£11. I dont know where I saw it as I cant get back to it. I presume it's lower this season now as there are more concessions. and season tickets
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Scothie the Stag » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:40 pm

Marky Mark wrote:
Rob wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:
Stag95 wrote:I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.


The average attendance of our last season in League One (4,800) was lower than our average attendance last year - that season had QPR, Bristol City, Cardiff, Chesterfield, Notts County, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Peterborough in it. The following season average was 5,200 - so we get a higher attendance when we are doing well in League Two than we do when we dont do well in League One. The following season the average was 4,100.

There are patterns to our attendances (averages):

Doing well in League 2: 4,900 (DF play off season), early 5,000's (03/04 and 21/22)
Doing poorly in League One: 4,800 (2002/3)
Treading water in League 2: 3,000 - 4,000 (2013-2018)
Poor in League 2: 2,800 (relegation season)

Theoretical - middle of the road in League One: 5,800 (doing well +15% like Wycombe)

I can definitely see why we're not adding 2,000+ capacity to an 8,000 capacity stadium at the moment when our average gates have never been more than 60% of it's existing capacity.


Firstly using previous attendance figures is clearly flawed given the unprecedented season ticket sales this summer. Secondly the increase in capacity isn't just for home fans. Thirdly this isn't just about economics, it's about having a 3 sided ground which is an embarrassment to the club. Fourth a new stand will ease congestion in other areas, leading to higher sales in the kiosks. Fifth, grants will help the finances of building a simple safe standing stand, had we done this ten years ago it would probably have paid for itself by now.. Finally, if we have a good season not having done the stand will cost the club hundreds of thousands in lost revenue.

We will be locking home fans out next season if we challenge and must future proof now, sadly it's too late for the coming season.


Rob, these have all been dubunked.
Previous attendance figures are fairly robust, they point to attendance ceilings at almost all levels of where we've been for the last 20+ years. Definitely more robust than hoping and guessing.
Firstly: More season tickets doesn't naturally equate to higher attendances, the only thing it certainly means is more up front cash for the club. How many of the 4,000 season ticket holders didn't attend a match last season? We've never averaged over 5,500 whichever league we've been in in the last 40 years, whether we've sold 0 season tickets or 4,000 season tickets so the additional season tickets are most likely coming from within the existing supporter base. The 1,200 additional season ticket holders wont translate to 1,200 additional supporters, 100 at the most. I'm giving the club less money than I did last season, I'd imagine most are. Some are already talking about sharing season tickets.
Secondly: It doesn't matter who the increased capacity is for if we've never averaged over 5,500 in an 8,000 capacity stadium. Yes we might sell out once or twice, but we might also get 84 away fans. It balances itself out.
Thirdly: Economics doesn't matter if it's someone else's money.
Fourthly: Will spreading existing fans out into more space generate enough additional kiosk income to pay for the extra overheads to run the extra space, not including the £1m+ to build. The current challenges are about crowd management, not capacity.
Fifth: Putting money into developing the Bish 10 years ago would likely have come at the expense of funding promotion out of the conference. Given that our attendances are still in line with what we'd expect them to be v's our league ladder position it is likely that it would still be a liability on our balance sheet, with little incremental benefit, meaning that Clough has less leeway in the transfer market today.
Finally: Having a Bishop St stand would not make hundreds of thousands of additional revenue per season. In League Two it would make no additional revenue as our attendances dont historically increase over above what can already be handled. A good season in League One would increase attendances by around 15%, which would mean additional gate revenue between £100k (worst case) and £400k (best case) - not accounting for what it costs to run it.

I'm not against developing the Bish, I would like it done if only for aesthetic purposes only but it'd be a drain on the finances right now, and I'd rather have a team fighting for success than a mid-table one with a shiny new stand so fans can buy a sausage roll 4 minutes quicker.



Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, what you're not taking into account is that our season ticket sales have already surpassed around 8 of our home matches from last season. Albeit all season ticket holders, won't attend all matches, I do suspect that alone will bump up our average.

"We've never averaged over 5,500 whichever league we've been in in the last 40 years, whether we've sold 0 season tickets or 4,000 season tickets..."- We don't have that information to go on as we've never sold 4,000 season tickets in modern times - it's an unknown.

I appreciate what you're saying about ceilings, but ceilings are sometimes broken - maybe selling 4,000 season tickets is our equivalent to a house on the street breaking the ceiling price. Look at Lincoln, regularly averaging 2s, 3s and 4s, with the odd 5s, but something just clicked with the cup run and Cowleys and now they're averaging highs 8s and 9s. Maybe Wembley, the atmosphere and Clough can do that for us. It wouldn't surprise me to see us average 6,000 - 6,500 next season (I could well be wrong).

I don't have a strong opinion either way regarding Bishop Street, although I am leaning towards doing it - aesthetically it'd look better and it would make it more accessible and give us ample room to grow. We don't want to ever get to the stage where we are turning away fans on a regular basis. That said, it's not my money!
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