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Season ticket pricing (update: 4450 sold so far)

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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:59 pm

I'm gonna glue myself to the North Stand bogs 'til they get it done.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby kevin kents tasce » Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:08 pm

Rob wrote:I'm gonna glue myself to the North Stand bogs 'til they get it done.



:lol:

At least County won’t be visiting to smash them up for a few seasons. You might be unglued before they come again
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby cassellswasmagic » Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm

Rob wrote:I'm gonna glue myself to the North Stand bogs 'til they get it done.

Can you make sure it’s super glue :lol:
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby mousemousemouse » Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:17 pm

Using the Derby analogy, a 2k seater stand (based on £15 average ticket per person) is £30k.

So we'd beed to play Derby 33 times to generate £1,000,000 (proposed potential build cost) in ticket sales.

Now minus the tax on that, plus running costs, maintenance, staffing and all that stuff. Let's presume profit is 20% then you'd be looking at playing a team like Derby 166 times before the profit is greater than the capital outlay

Thats not including kiosk sales etc

This season will be interesting with larger season ticket sales but are we really going to be selling out many games?

So if we wait until we get promotion/have another great season then it might mean a league 1 season where we sell out much more and risk potential revenue but thats much better than having a loss making stand.

Of course, we'll be aiming for more than a season in league 1 so the 4th stand would be much better than something we just chuck up to satisfy people
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:45 pm

Scothie the Stag wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:
Rob wrote:
Marky Mark wrote:
Stag95 wrote:I think we’d get more of an increase than that. Looking at League 1, Burton, Derby, Ipswich, Lincoln, MK, Port Vale, Pompy and Wednesday could all be close to selllouts.


The average attendance of our last season in League One (4,800) was lower than our average attendance last year - that season had QPR, Bristol City, Cardiff, Chesterfield, Notts County, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Peterborough in it. The following season average was 5,200 - so we get a higher attendance when we are doing well in League Two than we do when we dont do well in League One. The following season the average was 4,100.

There are patterns to our attendances (averages):

Doing well in League 2: 4,900 (DF play off season), early 5,000's (03/04 and 21/22)
Doing poorly in League One: 4,800 (2002/3)
Treading water in League 2: 3,000 - 4,000 (2013-2018)
Poor in League 2: 2,800 (relegation season)

Theoretical - middle of the road in League One: 5,800 (doing well +15% like Wycombe)

I can definitely see why we're not adding 2,000+ capacity to an 8,000 capacity stadium at the moment when our average gates have never been more than 60% of it's existing capacity.


Firstly using previous attendance figures is clearly flawed given the unprecedented season ticket sales this summer. Secondly the increase in capacity isn't just for home fans. Thirdly this isn't just about economics, it's about having a 3 sided ground which is an embarrassment to the club. Fourth a new stand will ease congestion in other areas, leading to higher sales in the kiosks. Fifth, grants will help the finances of building a simple safe standing stand, had we done this ten years ago it would probably have paid for itself by now.. Finally, if we have a good season not having done the stand will cost the club hundreds of thousands in lost revenue.

We will be locking home fans out next season if we challenge and must future proof now, sadly it's too late for the coming season.


Rob, these have all been dubunked.
Previous attendance figures are fairly robust, they point to attendance ceilings at almost all levels of where we've been for the last 20+ years. Definitely more robust than hoping and guessing.
Firstly: More season tickets doesn't naturally equate to higher attendances, the only thing it certainly means is more up front cash for the club. How many of the 4,000 season ticket holders didn't attend a match last season? We've never averaged over 5,500 whichever league we've been in in the last 40 years, whether we've sold 0 season tickets or 4,000 season tickets so the additional season tickets are most likely coming from within the existing supporter base. The 1,200 additional season ticket holders wont translate to 1,200 additional supporters, 100 at the most. I'm giving the club less money than I did last season, I'd imagine most are. Some are already talking about sharing season tickets.
Secondly: It doesn't matter who the increased capacity is for if we've never averaged over 5,500 in an 8,000 capacity stadium. Yes we might sell out once or twice, but we might also get 84 away fans. It balances itself out.
Thirdly: Economics doesn't matter if it's someone else's money.
Fourthly: Will spreading existing fans out into more space generate enough additional kiosk income to pay for the extra overheads to run the extra space, not including the £1m+ to build. The current challenges are about crowd management, not capacity.
Fifth: Putting money into developing the Bish 10 years ago would likely have come at the expense of funding promotion out of the conference. Given that our attendances are still in line with what we'd expect them to be v's our league ladder position it is likely that it would still be a liability on our balance sheet, with little incremental benefit, meaning that Clough has less leeway in the transfer market today.
Finally: Having a Bishop St stand would not make hundreds of thousands of additional revenue per season. In League Two it would make no additional revenue as our attendances dont historically increase over above what can already be handled. A good season in League One would increase attendances by around 15%, which would mean additional gate revenue between £100k (worst case) and £400k (best case) - not accounting for what it costs to run it.

I'm not against developing the Bish, I would like it done if only for aesthetic purposes only but it'd be a drain on the finances right now, and I'd rather have a team fighting for success than a mid-table one with a shiny new stand so fans can buy a sausage roll 4 minutes quicker.



Whilst I agree with a lot of what you say, what you're not taking into account is that our season ticket sales have already surpassed around 8 of our home matches from last season. Albeit all season ticket holders, won't attend all matches, I do suspect that alone will bump up our average.

"We've never averaged over 5,500 whichever league we've been in in the last 40 years, whether we've sold 0 season tickets or 4,000 season tickets..."- We don't have that information to go on as we've never sold 4,000 season tickets in modern times - it's an unknown.

I appreciate what you're saying about ceilings, but ceilings are sometimes broken - maybe selling 4,000 season tickets is our equivalent to a house on the street breaking the ceiling price. Look at Lincoln, regularly averaging 2s, 3s and 4s, with the odd 5s, but something just clicked with the cup run and Cowleys and now they're averaging highs 8s and 9s. Maybe Wembley, the atmosphere and Clough can do that for us. It wouldn't surprise me to see us average 6,000 - 6,500 next season (I could well be wrong).

I don't have a strong opinion either way regarding Bishop Street, although I am leaning towards doing it - aesthetically it'd look better and it would make it more accessible and give us ample room to grow. We don't want to ever get to the stage where we are turning away fans on a regular basis. That said, it's not my money!


You're right, that's the blind spot in terms of the extra kick on that we've never had before. However, you can count the number of times we've sold out in the last 20 years on one hand, how many did we sell out last year? One? And that currently whenever we've done well in League 2 we've averaged around about the same support, so the consistency in terms of numbers is there - what we dont exactly know is what we would do if we did well in League 1, but I'd be confident in 10-20% extra. I guess what I'm saying is that I dont believe that the argument for doing it right now exists, and that it's easy to mis-attribute crowd management challenges in a ground where entry and exit points aren't easy, as capacity problems - it's interesting that the club seems to be trying to put a sticking plaster over these with the new outside area that you can go in at half time in the West Stand, which says to me that at least they know and are trying to maximise revenue within the current footprint. Again, I'd hope that there were plans in place to press the button for it to go if the average got up to 6,000, which is 20% more than it's ever been, or doing well in League One. If we got to the Championship and there was no mention of it, then I'd seriously worry. Although if it means Rob stuck himself to the North Stand bogs, then leave it forever for me :D
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby arsene wengers coat » Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:48 pm

It's going to be a safe standing terrace. Jr said as much. So waiting to do something better when it's.more justified isn't really a reason. That part of the ground is so constrained anyway.

Do a nice smart terrace, with an integrated TV gantry a and score board. Improve capacity by circa 2500 and improve the atmosphere and the look of the ground. Maybe even integrate the lawn mower garage by the side of the QLE.

Final point - we don't.lnow what the CapEx is so all the talk about what is and isn't VfM is guesswork. Point that no one can argue is we're growing and progressing. So we need the room to expand into. You don't wait to reach capacity then respond, you anticipate, predict and prepare.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:56 pm

The stand will probably be there for around 50 years plus, I think it will more than pay for itself! Fans often point an accusatory finger at Haslam for not building the stand yet now when we have owners who can easily afford it, some don't want it done. I can't get my head around it!

Anyway, changed my mind on the glue, wouldn't want to give Mark the pleasure and I bet it still stinks over there ;)
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby cassellswasmagic » Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:44 pm

So if we go up and wait, we could potentially lose a lot of money. Arguments either way and good cases for either side. Selfishly I’d just like to see the back of that eyesore and have either a small safe standing stand or an 18 hole crazy golf course for all these new kids that have season tickets :D
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby mousemousemouse » Mon Jul 04, 2022 4:01 pm

arsene wengers coat wrote:It's going to be a safe standing terrace. Jr said as much. So waiting to do something better when it's.more justified isn't really a reason. That part of the ground is so constrained anyway.

Do a nice smart terrace, with an integrated TV gantry a and score board. Improve capacity by circa 2500 and improve the atmosphere and the look of the ground. Maybe even integrate the lawn mower garage by the side of the QLE.

Final point - we don't.lnow what the CapEx is so all the talk about what is and isn't VfM is guesswork. Point that no one can argue is we're growing and progressing. So we need the room to expand into. You don't wait to reach capacity then respond, you anticipate, predict and prepare.


“Anticipate, predict and prepare” is what we are doing now isn’t it?

Stuff you mention is all extremely valid, but doesn’t resolve the issue around the finances. JR has sunk so much money into the club through budgets and the training ground, I can understand why he’d not want to go throwing money into something that isn’t needed when we’ve sold out a hand ful of times
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Big yella » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:35 pm

Rob wrote:The stand will probably be there for around 50 years plus, I think it will more than pay for itself! Fans often point an accusatory finger at Haslam for not building the stand yet now when we have owners who can easily afford it, some don't want it done. I can't get my head around it!

Anyway, changed my mind on the glue, wouldn't want to give Mark the pleasure and I bet it still stinks over there ;)

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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby StagInHucknall » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:37 pm

It could be worse you could be stuck with this!

Field Mill is a great little stadium. Some clubs have a lot less. Some don’t even have a club and/or stadium.

Image
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:46 pm

Big yella wrote:
Rob wrote:The stand will probably be there for around 50 years plus, I think it will more than pay for itself! Fans often point an accusatory finger at Haslam for not building the stand yet now when we have owners who can easily afford it, some don't want it done. I can't get my head around it!

Anyway, changed my mind on the glue, wouldn't want to give Mark the pleasure and I bet it still stinks over there ;)

And fans who love to spend other peoples money.


Do you think the same when fans ask to sign players, or when JR bought the Mill, or when he built RH? Are fans only allowed to discuss things they themselves will pay for? Are Man U fans going to pay for the redevelopment of OT? Are Everton fans paying for their new ground? Are Villa fans paying for their new stand? Weren't you asking for a new ticketing system? Did you pay for it? It's a poor argument, fans are clearly entitled to an opinion on how to improve our club, be it on or off the field.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby kevin kents tasce » Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:56 pm

It’s not a poor argument at all. You just lack the ability to consider other peoples perspectives.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby halifaxstag » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:03 pm

StagInHucknall wrote:It could be worse you could be stuck with this!

Field Mill is a great little stadium. Some clubs have a lot less. Some don’t even have a club and/or stadium.

Image


Or this.
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aeria ... 81293.html
Nearly a FL ground. Withdean was only ever a stopgap for Brighton due to more dodgy owners, although they did play there for 11 seasons
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Johnny H » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:07 pm

If planning permission for Bishop Street Stand doesn't officially go in this season I truly believe it probably never will under JR's reign.
Bare in mind if it was submitted tomorrow it probably will not be built before the start of the 2024-25 season.

These applications take years because the amount of objections from the local residents would be high I imagine.

IMO we will never have a better fan base and paying support than now.....start the ball rolling MTFC !
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Sneag » Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:41 pm

Johnny H wrote:If planning permission for Bishop Street Stand doesn't officially go in this season I truly believe it probably never will under JR's reign.
Bare in mind if it was submitted tomorrow it probably will not be built before the start of the 2024-25 season.

These applications take years because the amount of objections from the local residents would be high I imagine.

IMO we will never have a better fan base and paying support than now.....start the ball rolling MTFC !


As long as the roof line isn't higher than the existing roof line, would planning be that slow? It's been in use as a football stand since 1732 so there is no change of use. The only material change would be any new construction between the end of the existing structure & QLE, and that is the blank side (no windows) of the gym. So no grounds for objection there. .
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby StagInHucknall » Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:36 pm

halifaxstag wrote:
StagInHucknall wrote:It could be worse you could be stuck with this!

Field Mill is a great little stadium. Some clubs have a lot less. Some don’t even have a club and/or stadium.

Image


Or this.
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-aeria ... 81293.html
Nearly a FL ground. Withdean was only ever a stopgap for Brighton due to more dodgy owners, although they did play there for 11 seasons


:lol: At least those stands look permanent.

All the stands at the withdean were temporary and had no roof (apart from the sportsman pub end).
I think they even borrowed the seating from the British Open every season. They didn’t even own it.
I know all about their owners and what they did to Brighton back in ‘97.

Still every cloud and all that. Both Brighton and Mansfield in the right hands now :D
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Grimsby fan1984 » Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:50 pm

I can safely say as a neutral you will beat your average attendance from last season no doubt with those numbers. What's the away allocation these days? We should bring a fair few
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby part time pete » Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:53 pm

Grimsby fan1984 wrote:I can safely say as a neutral you will beat your average attendance from last season no doubt with those numbers. What's the away allocation these days? We should bring a fair few


Anywhere between 1500 and 1800 depending on how many seats they cover up.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby adamstag » Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:28 pm

Grimsby fan1984 wrote:I can safely say as a neutral you will beat your average attendance from last season no doubt with those numbers. What's the away allocation these days? We should bring a fair few


If you bring over 1000 just before christmas notts police will have about 200 on duty, horses helicopters and probably several tanks in reserve.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby The One » Mon Jul 04, 2022 9:11 pm

adamstag wrote:
Grimsby fan1984 wrote:I can safely say as a neutral you will beat your average attendance from last season no doubt with those numbers. What's the away allocation these days? We should bring a fair few


If you bring over 1000 just before christmas notts police will have about 200 on duty, horses helicopters and probably several tanks in reserve.


You forgot the gate, no booze, 9am kick off and the dogs
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Rob » Mon Jul 04, 2022 10:30 pm

Sneag wrote:
Johnny H wrote:If planning permission for Bishop Street Stand doesn't officially go in this season I truly believe it probably never will under JR's reign.
Bare in mind if it was submitted tomorrow it probably will not be built before the start of the 2024-25 season.

These applications take years because the amount of objections from the local residents would be high I imagine.

IMO we will never have a better fan base and paying support than now.....start the ball rolling MTFC !


As long as the roof line isn't higher than the existing roof line, would planning be that slow? It's been in use as a football stand since 1732 so there is no change of use. The only material change would be any new construction between the end of the existing structure & QLE, and that is the blank side (no windows) of the gym. So no grounds for objection there. .


This side of the ground needs developing as soon as possible and we will never have a better opportunity than now, we have a fantastic owner who can afford it, we have a club on the up, we have a great manager (who wants the stand doing) and an increasing fanbase. Here's a story, probably true (but I would stand corrected) Mansfield had a train station, it was where Brunels or whatever it is now was. The Tories shut our rail lines under Beeching in 1964 and we were cut off completely. When we won promotion in 1976/77 to what is now the Championship we were told we needed the station to re-open to facilitate large away crowds, plans were made to re-open the line but the club were immediately relegated and the line never opened. That moment in time was gone and it took another 20 years before we had our station back (it fully opened in 1998). This is the same, if JR gets fed up, who knows who our next owner will be, he might have 50 quid to spend like Haslam. JR has done wonderful things for our club but inside our stadium is the same now as it was under Haslam, the match day experience is the same, big crowds forget the kiosks (or miss the game) and enjoy the queue for the bogs. The stand needs doing now, whilst we are on the up, whilst our club is on high.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Dave Wayne » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:39 pm

arsene wengers coat wrote:It's going to be a safe standing terrace. Jr said as much. So waiting to do something better when it's.more justified isn't really a reason. That part of the ground is so constrained anyway.

Do a nice smart terrace, with an integrated TV gantry a and score board. Improve capacity by circa 2500 and improve the atmosphere and the look of the ground. Maybe even integrate the lawn mower garage by the side of the QLE.

Final point - we don't.lnow what the CapEx is so all the talk about what is and isn't VfM is guesswork. Point that no one can argue is we're growing and progressing. So we need the room to expand into. You don't wait to reach capacity then respond, you anticipate, predict and prepare.

I have said this many times before, but here goes again. If we do this then we are investing money to reduce matchday income. Yes there will be the occasional sellout, but for the rest of the fixtures how many fans will go with the cheaper option of standing rather than the existing seated areas ? Let's say 500 people at £5 less each so we are down £2,500 per match, the best part of £60k per season just on league games. That is going to take 3 or 4 sellout games per season just to cover that loss, and that is without taking into account any matchday costs of opening the additional stand - stewards, kiosk staff, etc.
John Radford is a very succesful businessman. David Sharpe is doing a fantastic job as CEO. I am sure they have been having these discussions and will have certain criteria in mind that will trigger the need for the development of Bishop Street.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Dan » Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:59 pm

I’m not sure we’re even allowed to have any standing anyway as the original grants only covered seating.
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Re: Season ticket pricing (update: over 4000 sold so far)

Postby Grimsby fan1984 » Tue Jul 05, 2022 6:17 am

The One wrote:
adamstag wrote:
Grimsby fan1984 wrote:I can safely say as a neutral you will beat your average attendance from last season no doubt with those numbers. What's the away allocation these days? We should bring a fair few


If you bring over 1000 just before christmas notts police will have about 200 on duty, horses helicopters and probably several tanks in reserve.


You forgot the gate, no booze, 9am kick off and the dogs



Yeah no doubt there will be a big po po presence for that game, we didn't have many problems last season the new owners are really trying to improve the reputation of the club and so far it's working (we were mostly winning though which helped) so hopefully next season is more of the same and gradually we are treated more like humans less like wild animals.
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