{ the forum }
 
An independent supporters' website dedicated to Mansfield Town FC

Sinclair..released;Cooper.. extended;Knowles 6month contract

Discuss all things Stags and Football League Two, and share stuff using our BBCodes.
Forum rules
Please read the Posting Rules before participating. Posting on the forums is subject to adhering to these.
Also, see the Guidelines for Posting. Moderators may sometimes tidy posts which do not follow these customs.

Academy

Postby Kernow » Tue May 10, 2022 5:14 pm

Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.
Kernow
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 4423
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:05 pm
Location: Forest Town

Re: Academy

Postby Sedgwick » Tue May 10, 2022 5:30 pm

Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it
Sedgwick
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6699
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:01 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Academy

Postby Amber Andy » Tue May 10, 2022 5:31 pm

Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.

Obviously deemed not to be good enough. Would be great if they were, but we would all be moaning if we were struggling.
Amber Andy
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 9998
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 7:38 am

Re: Academy

Postby Rob » Tue May 10, 2022 5:33 pm

Sedgwick wrote:
Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it


They don't make it even when they are good enough .......
Rob
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 10579
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:33 am

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby georgefostersbeard » Tue May 10, 2022 5:37 pm

Do you mean at Stags or in general?

The stats on making it through each stage of development in youth and academy football are eye watering.

We have had a poor record over recent years but at least there is a strategic attempt to try to make the youth approach work. This cohort's development dates from before the significant investmentnin the academy
"Jobsworth authoritarian apologist" - HitchcocksShins
User avatar
georgefostersbeard
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6244
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby bear 73 » Tue May 10, 2022 5:42 pm

Its hard when players are released but the price of being a professional footballer, i wish them well and look forward to following their careers.
bear 73
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 2026
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:01 pm

Re: Academy

Postby kevin kents tasce » Tue May 10, 2022 5:43 pm

Rob wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it


They don't make it even when they are good enough .......


Yawn
Everything Is Borrowed
User avatar
kevin kents tasce
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:04 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby kevin kents tasce » Tue May 10, 2022 5:44 pm

I’ve said it for a few years now.

Do away with the academy and have a B team like Brentford
Everything Is Borrowed
User avatar
kevin kents tasce
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 1853
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:04 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby georgefostersbeard » Tue May 10, 2022 5:48 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:I’ve said it for a few years now.

Do away with the academy and have a B team like Brentford


I think with a well funded and resourced Academy that a club benefits from having one. Otherwise I would agree. In our case, we need to see it through for at least another four years to make any judgement on success
"Jobsworth authoritarian apologist" - HitchcocksShins
User avatar
georgefostersbeard
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6244
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:03 pm

Re: Academy

Postby Rob » Tue May 10, 2022 5:52 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:
Rob wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it


They don't make it even when they are good enough .......


Yawn


You said Ward was better than Smith :lol: Let's see where he ends up eh?
Rob
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 10579
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:33 am

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue May 10, 2022 5:58 pm

The two who I’ve thought would make it have been retained ie Cooper and Gale. Additionally they have effectively given Jimmy Knowles 6 months wages so that he has plenty of time to prove his worth. I thought Jimmy was really struggling prior to his injury and the club had given him plenty of loan time to get his game together.

I think that shows the club do not just dump players but give the youngsters every opportunity to make their mark. This is another example of the club recognising youngster’s potential and being realistic about their chances of getting into our first team squad on a regular basis. When those chances are slim, they have allowed them to leave and follow opportunity elsewhere even if it’s clear they could make league level in a couple of years. That is responsible management and lessens the chance of the youngsters failing altogether due to limited opportunity to develop.
Hello! Hello! We are the North Stand Boys.
Sandy Pate Best Stag
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 7133
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Johnny H » Tue May 10, 2022 6:02 pm

We need to give james gale every opportunity.....
He really is a talent and we do not want to make the same mistake like we did with Lee Gregory where we hardly gave him a chance.
We lost out on alot of potential money there !!!
Johnny H
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 1611
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:30 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue May 10, 2022 6:05 pm

Johnny H wrote:We need to give james gale every opportunity.....
He really is a talent and we do not want to make the same mistake like we did with Lee Gregory where we hardly gave him a chance.
We lost out on alot of potential money there !!!


I 100% agree with that and can see him as a first team regular substitute later on next season. A big strong but mobile lad who I think would play well with Oates. Both would be a handful for defenders with strong running both with and without the ball.
Hello! Hello! We are the North Stand Boys.
Sandy Pate Best Stag
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 7133
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Rob » Tue May 10, 2022 6:06 pm

Johnny H wrote:We need to give james gale every opportunity.....
He really is a talent and we do not want to make the same mistake like we did with Lee Gregory where we hardly gave him a chance.
We lost out on alot of potential money there !!!


Indeed we did, if only the Gregory thread was still available. It was a terrible decision to give him to Halifax.

Our record for bringing through young players since that outstanding crop 20 years ago has been abysmal.
Rob
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 10579
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:33 am

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue May 10, 2022 6:08 pm

Good luck to Tyrese Sinclair, Keaton Ward,, Nathan Caine, Jaden Charles, Ethan Hill and Ryan Burke. All the best for the future. Go and sign for a team where you will play regularly, gain experience and work your way back up. Alistair Smith has shown it can be done.

Tyrese Sinclair could probably sign for Scunthorpe if his Dad cannot fix him up at Donny Rovers.

Keaton Ward and Ryan Burke have shown they can play at National League North level. Jaden Charles could probably play at that level as well.

I assume Josh Scott is still under contract.
Tippy Tappy Football
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 13277
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Academy

Postby Sedgwick » Tue May 10, 2022 6:50 pm

Rob wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it


They don't make it even when they are good enough .......


When you use hindsight yes
Sedgwick
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6699
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:01 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Academy

Postby Rob » Tue May 10, 2022 7:10 pm

Sedgwick wrote:
Rob wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it


They don't make it even when they are good enough .......


When you use hindsight yes


I'm not using hindsight.
Rob
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 10579
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:33 am

Re: Academy

Postby Sedgwick » Tue May 10, 2022 7:17 pm

Rob wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Rob wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Kernow wrote:Another two years wasted. Kids leave again, why spend the cash.


As said before, if they're not good enough they don't make it


They don't make it even when they are good enough .......


When you use hindsight yes


I'm not using hindsight.


Sorry thought you were referring to the likes of Alister Smith etc..
Sedgwick
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6699
Joined: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:01 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Academy

Postby Rob » Tue May 10, 2022 7:28 pm

Sedgwick wrote:Sorry thought you were referring to the likes of Alister Smith etc..


Yes I was, I said at the time he should stay (as you know) which was clearly without the benefit of hindsight. I think he'll play even higher, again this is without the benefit of hindsight ;) .

Now you have the benefit of hindsight do you think we should have kept any of the three?
Rob
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 10579
Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:33 am

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby garlic » Tue May 10, 2022 7:30 pm

Nothing to do with hindsight, it`s to do with having a concerted plan to give these young players a real opportunity, not just a toe dipping exercise. This king of thinking runs counter to the english disease of short-term thinking which dominates every aspect of our society especially in the world of football. Not one of those youngsters had the same opportunity as Akins and Murphy. MTFC really doesn`t deserve promising youngsters, and the likes of Dis, Leroy and Lawrence would be as quickly dismissed now as those just released. Brain dead way to run a football club, but it seems to suit quite a lot of people.
garlic
First Team
First Team
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:40 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Stag95 » Tue May 10, 2022 8:08 pm

kevin kents tasce wrote:I’ve said it for a few years now.

Do away with the academy and have a B team like Brentford

We don’t have the luxury of employing 20 professional footballers to play in a B team that generates next to no income.
Stag95
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:41 am

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Vice President » Tue May 10, 2022 8:10 pm

The fact is that Nigel Clough has decided that the above released players are not good enough for MTFC at the moment, nor are likely to be in the near future. I don't disagree with Clough's assessment in that regard.

Regardless of our strategy - If the young players are good enough they will play. If not, they won't.

I think that players like Lawrence, Leroy, Hassell, Baptiste, Buxton & Naylor would all probably have played under Clough - because they were significantly better footballers than the ones we have released. I don't think it is an 'anti-youth' policy per se. I believe that it is simply a case of trying to assemble the best possible players within the available resources, as quickly as possible. I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach and I am glad that the Radford's are of the same opinion - because it remains our best chance of success.
Vice President
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 2248
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:59 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue May 10, 2022 8:16 pm

garlic wrote:Nothing to do with hindsight, it`s to do with having a concerted plan to give these young players a real opportunity, not just a toe dipping exercise. This king of thinking runs counter to the english disease of short-term thinking which dominates every aspect of our society especially in the world of football. Not one of those youngsters had the same opportunity as Akins and Murphy. MTFC really doesn`t deserve promising youngsters, and the likes of Dis, Leroy and Lawrence would be as quickly dismissed now as those just released. Brain dead way to run a football club, but it seems to suit quite a lot of people.


If you want to be a feeder club that stays permanently in the bottom division then by all means blood your youngsters and play them in your first team often enough to gain the necessary experience. The idea that we will concurrently grow enough youngsters to form an excellent team is quite frankly living in cloud cuckoo land. The team that contained Disley, Hassell et all also contained a large number of very experienced players coming to the end of their careers. It was a balance of youth and experience.

The owners of our club have made no secret of the fact that their main aim is promotion. That will not be obtained by playing a team of improving youth players as Scunthorpe proved last Saturday.

Clough will cherry pick the youngsters who are developing at a rate commensurate with achieving first team status. The rest he will allow to leave and develop at a lower level.

Smith actually is a very good example as to the validity of that system as he would never have achieved that standard had he stayed here with very limited opportunity.
Hello! Hello! We are the North Stand Boys.
Sandy Pate Best Stag
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 7133
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:37 pm

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby scotsstag » Wed May 11, 2022 12:43 am

Sandy Pate Best Stag wrote:The two who I’ve thought would make it have been retained ie Cooper and Gale. Additionally they have effectively given Jimmy Knowles 6 months wages so that he has plenty of time to prove his worth. I thought Jimmy was really struggling prior to his injury and the club had given him plenty of loan time to get his game together.

I think that shows the club do not just dump players but give the youngsters every opportunity to make their mark. This is another example of the club recognising youngster’s potential and being realistic about their chances of getting into our first team squad on a regular basis. When those chances are slim, they have allowed them to leave and follow opportunity elsewhere even if it’s clear they could make league level in a couple of years. That is responsible management and lessens the chance of the youngsters failing altogether due to limited opportunity to develop.

Watched Knowles play a number of times for Morton before his injury and to be truthful he was dire.
scotsstag
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 1662
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:43 am
Location: SCOTLAND

Re: Sinclair,Ward,Charles,Burke,Caine released;Cooper,Gale e

Postby georgefostersbeard » Wed May 11, 2022 6:07 am

garlic wrote:Nothing to do with hindsight, it`s to do with having a concerted plan to give these young players a real opportunity, not just a toe dipping exercise. This king of thinking runs counter to the english disease of short-term thinking which dominates every aspect of our society especially in the world of football. Not one of those youngsters had the same opportunity as Akins and Murphy. MTFC really doesn`t deserve promising youngsters, and the likes of Dis, Leroy and Lawrence would be as quickly dismissed now as those just released. Brain dead way to run a football club, but it seems to suit quite a lot of people.


The issue is that the academy has not been going long enough for us to see the benefits. I cannot remember a time when we had so many kids out on loan (presumably whilst still paid, by us) to other clubs. Clough has given them runs in the U23 competitions and other than Law I think they have been well served by his approach.
Sinclair appears to have gone backwards in his development and to argue that he deserves a place over Akins or Murphy is taking a passion for youth development to an extreme level.

We have invested heavily in youth but, on numerous occasions, Clough has, said that it will take time and patience. He says we needs to wait for the current crop who are 15 before potentially seeing a group come through.

That said, if Mason, Cooper Gale and Law come through into the squad next year couldn't that be considered a success of the system?
"Jobsworth authoritarian apologist" - HitchcocksShins
User avatar
georgefostersbeard
Manager
Manager
 
Posts: 6244
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:03 pm

Next

Return to Stagsnet Main Discussion Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Roger_Sausage, Spiritater and 132 guests