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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby gazza1988 » Sun Jan 23, 2022 10:09 pm

Bros wrote:I've just looked at page 1 of this thread. Some interesting comments by people at the beginning of October
Would they like to update their thoughts
gazza1988 wrote:I'd be happy enough with top half. It's all about improving on previous seasons for me. We had a relegation scrap on thanks to GC. We've gambled a couple of times and it's not paid off like we would have hoped in the past year.

We've got to see improvement. Am I correct in saying that Clough hadn't managed in league 2 before? Could just be teething problems? I'd love the play offs, I just can't see it as things stand. However a couple of centre backs fit and available playing their best and I feel we will start picking up form. Enough to get into the play offs? Cox managed it before, twice, so we know it's not impossible, especially from where we are now. We need defenders available as soon as possible though.


No, I don't think I will. My post was before we signed O'Toole so I was right on that point. At that point I was complaining about Hewitt at CB and Gordon at right back. That got sorted after I said it and a experienced pro was brought in to play centre half. Right back at right back and 2 experienced players who can actually play centre half to a good standard played and we've been in good form. The lack of clean sheets is a minor issue while we are picking up 3 points but could become a problem later on.

As things were at the time we'd still be in a relegation scrap (unless people want to convince me that we'd be on this run if we hadn't signed O'Toole) we are 1 or 2 defensive options away from reducing our goals against (2nd worst in the top 10 but that team has scored 8 more goals than us and have a higher goal difference by +5) its all well and good out scoring opponents but what if we don't score? Then on recent defensive form it's a loss whereas a strong defence could make it 0-0 and a point.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby broomo » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:49 am

gazza1988 wrote:
Bros wrote:I've just looked at page 1 of this thread. Some interesting comments by people at the beginning of October
Would they like to update their thoughts
gazza1988 wrote:I'd be happy enough with top half. It's all about improving on previous seasons for me. We had a relegation scrap on thanks to GC. We've gambled a couple of times and it's not paid off like we would have hoped in the past year.

We've got to see improvement. Am I correct in saying that Clough hadn't managed in league 2 before? Could just be teething problems? I'd love the play offs, I just can't see it as things stand. However a couple of centre backs fit and available playing their best and I feel we will start picking up form. Enough to get into the play offs? Cox managed it before, twice, so we know it's not impossible, especially from where we are now. We need defenders available as soon as possible though.


No, I don't think I will. My post was before we signed O'Toole so I was right on that point. At that point I was complaining about Hewitt at CB and Gordon at right back. That got sorted after I said it and a experienced pro was brought in to play centre half. Right back at right back and 2 experienced players who can actually play centre half to a good standard played and we've been in good form. The lack of clean sheets is a minor issue while we are picking up 3 points but could become a problem later on.

As things were at the time we'd still be in a relegation scrap (unless people want to convince me that we'd be on this run if we hadn't signed O'Toole) we are 1 or 2 defensive options away from reducing our goals against (2nd worst in the top 10 but that team has scored 8 more goals than us and have a higher goal difference by +5) its all well and good out scoring opponents but what if we don't score? Then on recent defensive form it's a loss whereas a strong defence could make it 0-0 and a point.


O'Toole was a central midfielder and Macca a winger (I notice the change to experienced players being able to handle it has come about as no one can argue he's been outstanding at left back), Hawkins a centre forward.

Will you ever let go of this "playing players out of position doesn't work" argument you've been pushing all season?

Also since the in depth mathematical analysis of goals needed per game, we've scored 5 and conceded 1.

Sometimes over analysing for analysing sakes on here. I even read yesterday (again) that Hawkins is a liability at centre half.

We've won 14 in 16, at some point we've got to accept that things are working.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:40 am

I had my reservations about Macca and since said I've been pleasantly surprised by how well he's played there. I don't know what else you want me to say in regards to macca?

O'Toole was a central midfielder, however as players gain more experience in games they develop enough to be a very good option in other positions too. Some young players gain that ability but are generally the exception and not the rule.

Since my in depth analysis, as you put it, we have conceded 1 and scored 5. In those 2 games we've played a player and centre back whose best position is centre back. So Erm..... Yeah I can't be that "wrong" can I? Before you say "well Rawson was sent off" we ran into a 2-1 lead before that and moved to a back 3 with Hewitt on the right of a back 3 (his 2nd best position/role for me). Let's look at the 2 games previous to that, we scored 5 and conceded 3. We conceded 3 times as many goals (its too small of a data point but you mentioned the 2 games)

Hawkins is a liability because he picks up yellow cards. Alot. Whilst he's domininant in the air and can put in a decent tackle sometimes he puts in a "centre forward's tackle" and picks up a card for his trouble. He's 1 yellow away from suspension for 2 games.

I do accept things are working. It just correlates to when we started playing the best players we could for that position and keeping with the winners stay on, when possible, rule.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby kevin kents tasce » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:08 am

Gazza, you are making my head hurt.

How can it be that O’Toole is ok to play centre back because he has gained experience there, but Gordon isn’t ok to play right back despite playing nearly all of his professional career there?

Hawkins isn’t a liability at centre back at all. That’s complete rubbish. He has picked up bookings, but how many reds has he picked up? By your logic, Rawson is a much bigger liability (he isn’t by the way).

You need to lay off of Football manager mate. Just accept that good players are able to play in multiple positions.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 8:59 am

Because Gordon hasn't played RB most of his professional career, before joining us that is.

It's a misconception. For example here's kellan Gordon's history https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kellan- ... rainer_id= it shows his positions he's played and how many times plus goals and assists from that position.

From right back he's played 56 games, which is more. However before joining us he'd been a right back 14 times. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/kellan- ... rainer_id= 8 for Derby u23, 3 for lincold in the efl trophy and 3 for Swindon in the league. The rest are all for us (when O'Keeffe joined he had more games at right back than that) so hardly

That website, when a player plays as a wing back with a back 3 is labelled as a right midfielder, right winger is when there's a full back behind him.

That's why. Plus the player himself said he's a wing back/winger when he signed. Why would he say that if he's "played right back nearly all his career" which he hasn't. Or rather, hadn't at the time on saying it.

So it's not OK because kellan played 14 games as a right back. It is OK for O"Toole to play centre back because he's had 51 games in that role before joining us at a higher level. Also a further 39 games as a defensive midfielder playing in front of defence. It's not that much of stretch that he's gained enough experience to play centre back to a high standard.

That's the issue. The standard. All players can play all positions but it's how well they perform them. I have an opinion on that. As do others. It's never been a case of one player only playing one position ever. It's a case of we can't clone players so 1 player can only play 1 position at any one time. That's the point I made but people took it to mean only one position and mustn't budge from there and they ran with it. It depends on the circumstance surround who is available.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby arsene wengers coat » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:43 am

Bros wrote:I've just looked at page 1 of this thread. Some interesting comments by people at the beginning of October
Would they like to update their thoughts


Don't be so devisive. We were at the foot of the league. I admit that patience was wearing thin with Clough on our miserable run. You can't blame people for being disgruntled when we were sat in 22nd drawing at home to Oldham.

The turnaround has been near on miraculous. The team have gone from 'rabit in headlights' to 'oozing swagger'. I don't know how Clough has done it, but it's mighty impressive. Probably a multitude of reasons.

The goal has to be autos now, only 3 points off them. Brilliant.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby Amber Andy » Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:52 am

I always had faith in Nigel Clough, however I didn't think we would make the playoffs. Maybe the thread should be changed to "Can Stags stay in the playoff positions".
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:33 pm

Players positions dont really exist anymore - other than goalkeeper, and you can argue that's changed beyond all recognition. I think Man City got rid of a goalkeeper because he wasn't good enough with the ball at his feet. The role of wing backs has changed, because they used to be defenders in a 5-3-2 who bombed on occasionally, now right backs in a 4-4-2 are the play makers in some teams - Alexander-Arnold and Robertson have the highest assists for Liverpool and are put on a team caption at right/left back because there's no space on the caption for them to go anywhere else - in reality they are attacking right/left hand side players who get back and defend occasionally, but their defensive job is shared with defensive midfielders. I think it was Chris Wilder who likes his centre defenders to get up and support attacks. So nothing in relation to to football as we knew it exists anymore.

The Liverpool way is what NC is looking for from his 'right backs' in, so if you're talking about a right back as a typical good at defending right back in what used to be a 4-4-2 then you're talking at the clouds, that's not what NC wants. McLaughlin is classed as a typical left back on a team sheet in our 4-4-2, he's played left wing for the majority of his career, but even when he's played centre back he's got down the left - and he's got the most assists for us this season but if you looked at the team sheet then you'd call him a left back - he's not.

If you go through our side then every player can play in 4 or 5 positions at least - Hewitt is right back (old style), right wing back, centre back and I bet he could do a job as a holding midfielder, O'Toole can switch, Hawkins up front and at the back, McLaughlin probably can play anywhere, Maris anywhere in midfield from defensive to attacking and probably can play centre back, Lapslie and Bowery have played wing back this season, Clarke anywhere across the midfield, etc, etc, etc. NC has just signed Akins who, in his interview, highlighted that he's played everywhere for Burton. Players for positions doesn't exist for NC - if you're judging Kellan Gordon or McLaughlin mainly on their defensive ability, or wanting right backs to play right back in the old style, then you're not getting it. I'd imagine NC got rid of O'Keeffe because he can 'only' play in two positions, for example. This team can play any formation it wants, with any player in any position, at any time in the game, and not make a substitution, with no impact on performance.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 12:51 pm

I don't dispute any of that Mark. We played a narrow diamond, earlier in the season Clarke was on the right of that diamond, he didn't help his right back at all. The Bradford game being prime example. The reason Macca has high assists is because he's backed up by Quinn.

I suggested that Hewitt could do a job in midfield earlier in the season and was shot down (transfermarkt says he has played 68 games as defensive midfielder, 15 as a central midfielder).

The problem we have is you're comparing our players with some of the best in the world, our players aren't at that level.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby bobbystagsfan » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:03 pm

Amber Andy wrote:I always had faith in Nigel Clough, however I didn't think we would make the playoffs. Maybe the thread should be changed to "Can Stags stay in the playoff positions".

Hopefully not.

Top 3 please :D
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby James » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:19 pm

gazza1988 wrote:I don't dispute any of that Mark. We played a narrow diamond, earlier in the season Clarke was on the right of that diamond, he didn't help his right back at all. The Bradford game being prime example. The reason Macca has high assists is because he's backed up by Quinn.

I suggested that Hewitt could do a job in midfield earlier in the season and was shot down (transfermarkt says he has played 68 games as defensive midfielder, 15 as a central midfielder).

The problem we have is you're comparing our players with some of the best in the world, our players aren't at that level.


He wasn't comparing the players, he was comparing the positions and roles they're being asked to do.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:29 pm

That may be so James, but it's still comparing systems in use at the very top level and expecting league 2 players to be able to fulfil the same roles. Doesn't quite work like that.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby Dan » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:36 pm

Marky Mark wrote:Players positions dont really exist anymore - other than goalkeeper, and you can argue that's changed beyond all recognition. I think Man City got rid of a goalkeeper because he wasn't good enough with the ball at his feet. The role of wing backs has changed, because they used to be defenders in a 5-3-2 who bombed on occasionally, now right backs in a 4-4-2 are the play makers in some teams - Alexander-Arnold and Robertson have the highest assists for Liverpool and are put on a team caption at right/left back because there's no space on the caption for them to go anywhere else - in reality they are attacking right/left hand side players who get back and defend occasionally, but their defensive job is shared with defensive midfielders. I think it was Chris Wilder who likes his centre defenders to get up and support attacks. So nothing in relation to to football as we knew it exists anymore.

The Liverpool way is what NC is looking for from his 'right backs' in, so if you're talking about a right back as a typical good at defending right back in what used to be a 4-4-2 then you're talking at the clouds, that's not what NC wants. McLaughlin is classed as a typical left back on a team sheet in our 4-4-2, he's played left wing for the majority of his career, but even when he's played centre back he's got down the left - and he's got the most assists for us this season but if you looked at the team sheet then you'd call him a left back - he's not.

If you go through our side then every player can play in 4 or 5 positions at least - Hewitt is right back (old style), right wing back, centre back and I bet he could do a job as a holding midfielder, O'Toole can switch, Hawkins up front and at the back, McLaughlin probably can play anywhere, Maris anywhere in midfield from defensive to attacking and probably can play centre back, Lapslie and Bowery have played wing back this season, Clarke anywhere across the midfield, etc, etc, etc. NC has just signed Akins who, in his interview, highlighted that he's played everywhere for Burton. Players for positions doesn't exist for NC - if you're judging Kellan Gordon or McLaughlin mainly on their defensive ability, or wanting right backs to play right back in the old style, then you're not getting it. I'd imagine NC got rid of O'Keeffe because he can 'only' play in two positions, for example. This team can play any formation it wants, with any player in any position, at any time in the game, and not make a substitution, with no impact on performance.


Spot on mate and you’ve not even mentioned the 32 positions Jordon Bowery has played in ;)
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby bear 73 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 1:57 pm

A interesting debate At the big clubs having 2 players for every position is standard, and still room for utility players.
Small clubs can only sustain a smaller playing staff, so need utility players to keep costs down,
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:17 pm

bear 73 wrote:A interesting debate At the big clubs having 2 players for every position is standard, and still room for utility players.
Small clubs can only sustain a smaller playing staff, so need utility players to keep costs down,


That is true. But players do have a degree of versatility to them. Some are more versatile than others. Some are so good in their main position or good in their secondary position(s) that they don't move around to avoid weakening where they are best employed at.

We have a squad of 25 players (24 now Sinclair has gone, 23 if O'Keeffe leaves.)

Plenty there for 2 in every position on the field plus 2 others. This doesn't include players out on loan already, using the squad post at the top of the forum.

A fair few of those are versatile. Plus Clough will want to sign at least 1 more.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby yellowstagsfan » Mon Jan 24, 2022 2:37 pm

Amber Andy wrote:I always had faith in Nigel Clough, however I didn't think we would make the playoffs. Maybe the thread should be changed to "Can Stags stay in the playoff positions".

No it should be ‘Can Stags make the top 3’
Bolton did it after a bad first half to season, no reason why Stags can’t
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby Birminghamstag10 » Mon Jan 24, 2022 3:30 pm

yellowstagsfan wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:I always had faith in Nigel Clough, however I didn't think we would make the playoffs. Maybe the thread should be changed to "Can Stags stay in the playoff positions".

No it should be ‘Can Stags make the top 3’
Bolton did it after a bad first half to season, no reason why Stags can’t


Bolton didn't really get going until end of Jan, we're a few months ahead of them in that regard so really no reason why we can't push on. Still...one game at a time! ha!
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby Sneag » Mon Jan 24, 2022 4:27 pm

If Carlsberg did last days of the season, we'll be playing the vegans for who wins the title.

Both teams will already be promoted & the travelling army of 150 FGR fans be sat in the far corner of the Northstand with some of the magic tape for segregation. 1500 Staggies sat in the rest of it. :D
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby halifaxstag » Mon Jan 24, 2022 6:51 pm

Cockney Stag wrote:To get a true accurate reflection you'd have to look at what sides we played, what their respective home forms were before and their overall form. To get a true weighted ppg.

But that's too much effort on a Sunday.

We have played:
4 of the top 8 away (L4). Three of these were during our bad run.
4 of the bottom 8 W2 D1 L1 both wins in our recent good run
2 of the middle 8 W1 D1

If we can pick some points up against FGR, Tranmere and Newport and maintain similar away form against the bottom and (particularly) middle sections of the table then we can easily pick up 1.5 ppg away which would be a decent return
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby bear 73 » Tue Jan 25, 2022 2:51 pm

Dont aim to high or to low take one game at a time , our aim this season was the play offs or at least top ten.
Our recent form as put us on a pedestal and we are the team to beat, so no easy games the good news we are in the mix.
Yes looking good for a play off spot, but if we fail we try again next year progress is our main aim and we will get there.
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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby STAGS FOR LIFE » Tue Jan 25, 2022 3:54 pm

:)

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Re: Can Stags make the Play-Offs

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:37 pm

STAGS FOR LIFE wrote::)




An interesting little listen.

Unfortunately I think that is pretty poorly researched as the pundits obviously have no idea of the injury/suspension crisis we suffered early in the season and give no allowance for it. They seem to think we just weren’t playing very well with a full squad. They also think we’ve only just gone in for Akins or at least appear to do so, and also only had league 2 rivalry for O’Toole’s signature.

They think we will fade but still go up via the playoffs which would be a very welcome result. It would appear we are getting the attention of others at long last.
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Can Stags finish in the TOP 3

Postby KirkbyStag2 » Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:04 pm

After Stags record breaking 8 consecutive wins it would be disappointing not to finish at least in the Play-Offs, so I'm changing the title to "Can Stags finish in the TOP 3"

Estimated 81 points required for the Top 3

Current Table

PLD..W...D...L...PTS...PPG
.26..13...5...8....44....1.69

Required for 81 Points

PLD..W...D...L...PTS...PPG
.20..12...1...7....37...1.85
.20..11...4...5....37...1.85
.20..10...7...3....37...1.85
.20...9...10..1....37...1.85

Stags current PPG 1.69 over a season would total of 78 points.

Current Form Table (12 games)
POS.......................W...D...L...PTS
1st Stags..............11...0...1....33
2nd Forest Green....8...4...0....28
3rd Tranmere.........8...2...2....26

Stags amazing turnaround in league form continues, winning 11 out of 12 games, 33 points from a possible 36.

Stags have bizarrely played 6 more home games than away games, to even this out 9 of the next 12 games are away.

:coys:
Last edited by KirkbyStag2 on Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can Stags finish in the TOP 3

Postby Cockney Stag » Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:23 pm

Our win will come to an end, it would be absolutely insane for it not too.

As long as we can bounce back from any setbacks and keep up playoff form going forward I'll be pleased.
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Re: Can Stags finish in the TOP 3

Postby eggy » Sat Jan 29, 2022 9:01 pm

So, 33 more points from the next 12 games and we can be pretty much done by the end of March.

Piece of cake really :lol:
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