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Defensive frailties

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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:45 pm

Whether we sign unattached now or out of favour in January they will be low on match fitness regardless. Unless we go after a defender in form, but then they will cost a few quid.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:21 pm

chris wilson wrote:I'm not accounting for individual errors and goals conceded from set pieces but mostly all the goals we've conceded this season have been from balls into the box from wide channels.


We have only conceded 3 goals from crosses in open play and one of those was due to George Maris failing to clear the ball and then diving in after a corner had been cleared against Harrogate and another was due to Kellan Gordon getting caught in possession on Saturday. We have conceded 4 goals from corners and 3 goals from long boots down the pitch by the opposition keeper or defenders (Walsall x 2 and Newport). We can easily improve our defensive record by defending better at corners and our centre halfs heading away or clearing long balls down the pitch.

Type of Goals Conceded - League
Corners = 4 (Right x 2, Left x 1, 1 x 2nd Phase)
Penalty = 1
Headers = 4
Shots Outside Area = 2
Shots Inside Area = 7
Goals From Crosses = 3 (Left x 2, Right x 1)
Goals from Shots Pushed Away By Keeper = 1 (Bradford City)
Goals from Long Kick from Keeper = 1 (Newport)
Goals from long balls down the pitch = 2 (Walsall x 2)
Defender caught in possession = 1 (Rochdale)
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Vice President » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:40 pm

bobbystagsfan wrote:
northern stag wrote:VP said ‘This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season’
You did see Neil Moore and Mark Lever didnt you ??



Or our relegation season into non league.

I'd probably say there were some pairings in non league that were a lot worse too.


Yes - Lever & Moore were certainly the worst centre-back pairing I've ever seen. :lol: However, I am taking into account the entire back four. And looking at the full backs, Gordon is the worst full back i have seen since Prindeville. (I can't remember if Prindeville played on the right or left). Furthermore, the other full back (McLaughlin) is actually a winger. Overall, this back four seems very disjointed and weak.

With regards to the 'relegation' back four: Buxton & Baptiste were good defenders (as their careers proved) - the biggest problem that season was the goal keeper.

With regards to the non-league - we had some quite good defences: Dempster, Jones, Big Ex, O'Neill, Beavers, Sutton, Jennings, Taylor, etc.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Stag on the Beach » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:06 am

Just watched the highlights video from Saturday's game. If Rochdale had been a bit sharper up front, they'd have been out of sight before we equalised.


On the chance they had after 20 seconds of the highlights video, the defence was all over the place when the cross came in from the right, leaving three Dale players unmarked.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Spiritater » Tue Sep 21, 2021 7:34 am

Any ball into the centre of the 6 yard box should be Bishops. He can't rely on our defence to deal with it. He has to take command or Harry will be licking his lips at the prospect of a field day on Sat. Smith v Hewitt there's only one winner there I'm afraid.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Amber Andy » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:20 am

Vice President wrote:
bobbystagsfan wrote:
northern stag wrote:VP said ‘This is the weakest defence that I have seen in 50 years! Two poor centre-backs and two full backs who are not even full backs. The warning signs were there last season’
You did see Neil Moore and Mark Lever didnt you ??



Or our relegation season into non league.

I'd probably say there were some pairings in non league that were a lot worse too.


Yes - Lever & Moore were certainly the worst centre-back pairing I've ever seen. :lol: However, I am taking into account the entire back four. And looking at the full backs, Gordon is the worst full back i have seen since Prindeville. (I can't remember if Prindeville played on the right or left). Furthermore, the other full back (McLaughlin) is actually a winger. Overall, this back four seems very disjointed and weak.

With regards to the 'relegation' back four: Buxton & Baptiste were good defenders (as their careers proved) - the biggest problem that season was the goal keeper.

With regards to the non-league - we had some quite good defences: Dempster, Jones, Big Ex, O'Neill, Beavers, Sutton, Jennings, Taylor, etc.

Especially against Rotherham :o
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sedgwick » Tue Sep 21, 2021 12:04 pm

Looks like two players at the training ground without squad numbers... not seen any photos or anything but could be free agents? or youth players

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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Johnny H » Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:22 pm

The season we got relegated it was certainly not Jason White's fault we went down.
He only played around 14 or 15 games that season and kept 5 or 6 clean sheets.
We were already well doomed when the freak goal went in against Rotherham....and many of the best GK's in the world have conceded goals like that since
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:04 pm

Our best centre half partnership in recent times playing a back four has been Krystian Pearce and Rhys Bennett. We should have tried to sign Bennett again when he was released by Carlisle United. I'm sure we could have matched what Steve Evans was offering at Gillingham. I also would have liked to have signed Aaron Hayden from Carlisle United but Wrexham are said to have paid £200,000-£250,000 for him.

There was also Ben Tozer and Will Boyle at Cheltenham but they would have also required transfer fees with Ben Tozer also being sold to Wrexham for £250,000.

I also liked Anthony O'Connor (Morecambe), Pierce Sweeney, Jordan Tunnicliffe, Dan Happe and Tom Davies (Tranmere) from watching League 2 games last season.

Looking at the players released by League 1/2 clubs, there were also a few other decent experienced centre halfs who might have done a job for us

League 1
Will Aimson (Bolton)
Olly Lancashire (Southampton)
Scott Wootton (Morecambe)
Tom Davies (Tranmere Rovers)
George Ray (Exeter City)

League 2
Ryan Delaney (Morecambe)
Tom Clarke (Fleetwood Town)
Manny Monthe (Walsall)
Rory McArdle (Harrogate Town)
Tom Parkes (Livingston)
Sid Nelson (Northampton Town)
Dan Scarr (Plymouth Argyle)
Nat Knight-Percival (Tranmere Rovers)
Last edited by Tippy Tappy Football on Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sedgwick » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:43 pm

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Our best centre half partnership in recent times playing a back four has been Krystian Pearce and Rhys Bennett. We should have tried to sign Bennett again when he was released by Carlisle United. I'm sure we could have matched what Steve Evans was offering at Gillingham. I also would have liked to have signed Aaron Hayden from Carlisle United but Wrexham are said to have paid £200,000-£250,000 for him.

There was also Ben Tozer and Will Boyle at Cheltenham but they would have also required transfer fees with Ben Tozer also being sold to Wrexham for £250,000.

I also liked Anthony O'Connor (Morecambe), Pierce Sweeney, Jordan Tunnicliffe, Dan Happe and Tom Davies (Tranmere) from watching League 2 games last season.

Looking at the players released by League 1/2 clubs, there were also a few other decent experienced centre halfs who might have done a job for us

League 2
Will Aimson (Bolton)
Olly Lancashire (Southampton)
Scott Wootton (Morecambe)
Tom Davies (Tranmere Rovers)
Ryan Delaney (Morecambe)
Tom Clarke (Fleetwood Town)
Manny Monthe (Walsall)
Rory McArdle (Harrogate Town)
Tom Parkes (Livingston)
Sid Nelson (Northampton Town)
George Ray (Exeter City)
Dan Scarr (Plymouth Argyle)
Nat Knight-Percival (Tranmere Rovers)


Thing is, the staff will only sign players they're are aware of or have scouted thoroughly... there's some weird belief on here that they scout every player who's in any league and its poor management when we don't sign someone brilliant after missing out on xy and z... they have a number of targets for a reason.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby gazza1988 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:03 pm

Scouting is only half the battle. They've got to have the right attributes for the role you want them to play. They may well look good but sometimes that could be because players alongside them compliment them well.

It's why some players are pants for one side and then look 10x better in another side.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:04 pm

You would expect our scouting team to be aware of all the decent centre halfs in Leagues 1 and 2 bearing in mind their experience at Burton and at Mansfield last season.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby yellowstagsfan » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:04 pm

Sedgwick wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Our best centre half partnership in recent times playing a back four has been Krystian Pearce and Rhys Bennett. We should have tried to sign Bennett again when he was released by Carlisle United. I'm sure we could have matched what Steve Evans was offering at Gillingham. I also would have liked to have signed Aaron Hayden from Carlisle United but Wrexham are said to have paid £200,000-£250,000 for him.

There was also Ben Tozer and Will Boyle at Cheltenham but they would have also required transfer fees with Ben Tozer also being sold to Wrexham for £250,000.

I also liked Anthony O'Connor (Morecambe), Pierce Sweeney, Jordan Tunnicliffe, Dan Happe and Tom Davies (Tranmere) from watching League 2 games
Looking at the players released by League 1/2 clubs, there were also a few other decent experienced centre halfs who might have done a job for us

League 2
Will Aimson (Bolton)
Olly Lancashire (Southampton)
Scott Wootton (Morecambe)
Tom Davies (Tranmere Rovers)
Ryan Delaney (Morecambe)
Tom Clarke (Fleetwood Town)
Manny Monthe (Walsall)
Rory McArdle (Harrogate Town)
Tom Parkes (Livingston)
Sid Nelson (Northampton Town)
George Ray (Exeter City)
Dan Scarr (Plymouth Argyle)
Nat Knight-Percival (Tranmere Rovers)


Thing is, the staff will only sign players they're are aware of or have scouted thoroughly... there's some weird belief on here that they scout every player who's in any league and its poor management when we don't sign someone brilliant after missing out on xy and z... they have a number of targets for a reason.

Krystian Pearce was available and would have been better than what we currently have
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:25 pm

yellowstagsfan wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Our best centre half partnership in recent times playing a back four has been Krystian Pearce and Rhys Bennett. We should have tried to sign Bennett again when he was released by Carlisle United. I'm sure we could have matched what Steve Evans was offering at Gillingham. I also would have liked to have signed Aaron Hayden from Carlisle United but Wrexham are said to have paid £200,000-£250,000 for him.

There was also Ben Tozer and Will Boyle at Cheltenham but they would have also required transfer fees with Ben Tozer also being sold to Wrexham for £250,000.

I also liked Anthony O'Connor (Morecambe), Pierce Sweeney, Jordan Tunnicliffe, Dan Happe and Tom Davies (Tranmere) from watching League 2 games
Looking at the players released by League 1/2 clubs, there were also a few other decent experienced centre halfs who might have done a job for us

League 2
Will Aimson (Bolton)
Olly Lancashire (Southampton)
Scott Wootton (Morecambe)
Tom Davies (Tranmere Rovers)
Ryan Delaney (Morecambe)
Tom Clarke (Fleetwood Town)
Manny Monthe (Walsall)
Rory McArdle (Harrogate Town)
Tom Parkes (Livingston)
Sid Nelson (Northampton Town)
George Ray (Exeter City)
Dan Scarr (Plymouth Argyle)
Nat Knight-Percival (Tranmere Rovers)


Thing is, the staff will only sign players they're are aware of or have scouted thoroughly... there's some weird belief on here that they scout every player who's in any league and its poor management when we don't sign someone brilliant after missing out on xy and z... they have a number of targets for a reason.

Krystian Pearce was available and would have been better than what we currently have


I’m not so sure about that. Having watched him several times on tv last season, I would say he was a shadow of the player we knew and admired.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:31 pm

Rollin Menayese should not have been allowed to join Walsall on loan until we had recruited a quality fit replacement. If we still had Rollin in the squad on transfer deadline day then I do not think Nigel Clough would have allowed him to leave the building bearing in mind Richard Nartey was carrying a knock and Will Forrester was injured. Sam Hughes was also injured.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:41 pm

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Rollin Menayese should not have been allowed to join Walsall on loan until we had recruited a quality fit replacement. If we still had Rollin in the squad on transfer deadline day then I do not think Nigel Clough would have allowed him to leave the building bearing in mind Richard Nartey was carrying a knock and Will Forrester was injured. Sam Hughes was also injured.


Yes we can see that in hindsight Tippy and I agree. Looking back there did appear to be a culture of needing to get some out before getting anyone new in. That appears to have backfired somewhat and is coming back to bite us on the rump.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bear 73 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:49 pm

Sometimes rather than just take bodies, you are better bringing in our young players and giving them experience like we did last year.
Near the end of September now, and quality players will have been snapped up.
Better to take a step back than rush into a panic mode. We have a tried and tested recruiting policy, and a system that puts players as young has 16 on the pitch.
walk and get there, always beats rushing and falling, remember the turtle and the hare
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Parkinsons Perm » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:51 pm

bear 73 wrote:Sometimes rather than just take bodies, you are better bringing in our young players and giving them experience like we did last year.
Near the end of September now, and quality players will have been snapped up.
Better to take a step back than rush into a panic mode. We have a tried and tested recruiting policy, and a system that puts players as young has 16 on the pitch.
walk and get there, always beats rushing and falling, remember the turtle and the hare


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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby gazza1988 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:38 pm

bear 73 wrote:Sometimes rather than just take bodies, you are better bringing in our young players and giving them experience like we did last year.
Near the end of September now, and quality players will have been snapped up.
Better to take a step back than rush into a panic mode. We have a tried and tested recruiting policy, and a system that puts players as young has 16 on the pitch.
walk and get there, always beats rushing and falling, remember the turtle and the hare


I have a question, if I may.

If he plays youth then why isn't George Cooper getting game time? Free up the right back to play right back.

In fact another question. Does Clough have a history of signing players to play in their "secondary" pesitions rather than their main ones?
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:22 pm

Sedgwick wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Our best centre half partnership in recent times playing a back four has been Krystian Pearce and Rhys Bennett. We should have tried to sign Bennett again when he was released by Carlisle United. I'm sure we could have matched what Steve Evans was offering at Gillingham. I also would have liked to have signed Aaron Hayden from Carlisle United but Wrexham are said to have paid £200,000-£250,000 for him.

There was also Ben Tozer and Will Boyle at Cheltenham but they would have also required transfer fees with Ben Tozer also being sold to Wrexham for £250,000.

I also liked Anthony O'Connor (Morecambe), Pierce Sweeney, Jordan Tunnicliffe, Dan Happe and Tom Davies (Tranmere) from watching League 2 games last season.

Looking at the players released by League 1/2 clubs, there were also a few other decent experienced centre halfs who might have done a job for us

League 2
Will Aimson (Bolton)
Olly Lancashire (Southampton)
Scott Wootton (Morecambe)
Tom Davies (Tranmere Rovers)
Ryan Delaney (Morecambe)
Tom Clarke (Fleetwood Town)
Manny Monthe (Walsall)
Rory McArdle (Harrogate Town)
Tom Parkes (Livingston)
Sid Nelson (Northampton Town)
George Ray (Exeter City)
Dan Scarr (Plymouth Argyle)
Nat Knight-Percival (Tranmere Rovers)


Thing is, the staff will only sign players they're are aware of or have scouted thoroughly... there's some weird belief on here that they scout every player who's in any league and its poor management when we don't sign someone brilliant after missing out on xy and z... they have a number of targets for a reason.

That’s because it is poor management. The list needs to be longer. I would have thought that was obvious even to to the Stagsnet Don Howe
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Sep 23, 2021 4:24 pm

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Rollin Menayese should not have been allowed to join Walsall on loan until we had recruited a quality fit replacement. If we still had Rollin in the squad on transfer deadline day then I do not think Nigel Clough would have allowed him to leave the building bearing in mind Richard Nartey was carrying a knock and Will Forrester was injured. Sam Hughes was also injured.

100pc spot on. Wonder what Don Howe will have to say about that.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby broomo » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:28 pm

bellwhiff wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Rollin Menayese should not have been allowed to join Walsall on loan until we had recruited a quality fit replacement. If we still had Rollin in the squad on transfer deadline day then I do not think Nigel Clough would have allowed him to leave the building bearing in mind Richard Nartey was carrying a knock and Will Forrester was injured. Sam Hughes was also injured.

100pc spot on. Wonder what Don Howe will have to say about that.


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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby KirkbyStag2 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 5:57 pm

Johnny H wrote:The season we got relegated it was certainly not Jason White's fault we went down.
He only played around 14 or 15 games that season and kept 5 or 6 clean sheets.
We were already well doomed when the freak goal went in against Rotherham....and many of the best GK's in the world have conceded goals like that since


If we had drawn 0-0 v Rotherham, instead of losing 0-1 from a goal hit from near the dug outs (Bishop Street side), this would have been the league table,

.................PLD....PTS.....GD
Dag & Red...45......46......-23
Stags..........45......43.....-17
Wrexham....45......37......-34

So a Stags win at Dag & Red on the last day of the season would have been enough for Stags to stay up on goal difference.

That dreadful goal v Rotherham was crucial and was the nail in the coffin.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby Amber Andy » Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:33 pm

KirkbyStag2 wrote:
Johnny H wrote:The season we got relegated it was certainly not Jason White's fault we went down.
He only played around 14 or 15 games that season and kept 5 or 6 clean sheets.
We were already well doomed when the freak goal went in against Rotherham....and many of the best GK's in the world have conceded goals like that since


If we had drawn 0-0 v Rotherham, instead of losing 0-1 from a goal hit from near the dug outs (Bishop Street side), this would have been the league table,

.................PLD....PTS.....GD
Dag & Red...45......46......-23
Stags..........45......43.....-17
Wrexham....45......37......-34

So a Stags win at Dag & Red on the last day of the season would have been enough for Stags to stay up on goal difference.

That dreadful goal v Rotherham was crucial and was the nail in the coffin.

Spot on. That goal was a gut wrencher, and very significant in our demise.
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Re: Defensive frailties

Postby bellwhiff » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:01 pm

broomo wrote:
bellwhiff wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Rollin Menayese should not have been allowed to join Walsall on loan until we had recruited a quality fit replacement. If we still had Rollin in the squad on transfer deadline day then I do not think Nigel Clough would have allowed him to leave the building bearing in mind Richard Nartey was carrying a knock and Will Forrester was injured. Sam Hughes was also injured.

100pc spot on. Wonder what Don Howe will have to say about that.


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Hint, it's not yours Parky's or the trolls.

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