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Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:15 pm

Clough mentioned when Law came into the team about some young players taking a while to get going, and if he sees something in them he will keep them in mind.

The worry for Jimmy is that Clough openly criticised Knowles performances in pre-season. Maybe it will help that he has a point to prove.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby gazza1988 » Mon Aug 16, 2021 7:15 pm

Clough likes to find unknowns in Scotland. Best place for Jimmy to go.

If we end up with a few injuries up top the Caine can fill the bench.

I get the feeling Clough rates Caine more than Jimmy. Could be because Jimmy was on loan last season at a good level when Clough came in.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Sedgwick » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:36 am

arsene wengers coat wrote:You have to ask what the point of our Youth system is.

Current yield: 0.


Suggest you watch no hunger in paradise by BT sport or read the book. I have the same opinion as many, that most academies at our level are pointless.

The top, and I mean very top top academies like City and United, have such a small number of players that make it all the way despite hand picking the best players.

- Most age groups have one or two star players the club think will make it, the rest are there so they have a team to be in, literally making up the numbers, again lowering the chance of developing a player for the first team.

- Theres a big argument about, can you really tell a if a kid has the attributes to go pro? I don't think you can, and its why few clubs find players good enough.

- Theres not an academy in football that, develops youth players and ever makes money on them after all that's spent on their development.

- Clubs like stags, rarely scout players... if they do they're already losing out to bigger local clubs. We pick up already released players at exit trials, again lowering the chance of developing a player.



Also back to Jimmy, just because he's gone on loan again doesn't mean hes finished does it? Hes a kid thats hardly played mens football.... He did well at county and didn't really feature as regularly as we need. Let him go player week in week out and see how he does... If he smashes it he'll feature for us.


I don't understand the panic that were sending our few prospects on loan to gain experience, thats been the missing link for years... they either play U23's football or play pub football at rainworth or lower then we wonder why they're not ready.

Good luck Jim
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Marky Mark » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:25 am

I don't know what the answer to this is - but I wonder whether, for small clubs like ours, who are in the cross hairs of catchment areas of around 10-15 clubs in higher leagues - that the more success they get from player sell-ons is from kids they pick up that have been rejected by other local academies. I understand that we fans like our local kids to make it, but how many of ours have over the years? Calderwood, McKernon, Coleman, Holland, Ward, Liam, Baptiste, Dis? Williamson? We've even released kids (Gregory) that have been picked up and sold on.

There's no coincidence that our local lads that have gone on to better things were all in the years before academies became an established thing - how many have even progressed into our first team in the last 10 years, or have been sold to a higher club? We've had success at youth level, but if that doesn't translate to first team benefit then is it worth the investment? Would the investment be better spent by scouting other teams academies and picking up players that have been released?

I guess the counter view is that at least we have the infrastructure now to be one of those higher placed clubs who will pick up the better local talent, if we move up through the leagues to Championship level. And also that it's good for the club to be involved locally.

I genuinely dont know the answer, just thinking out loud. But good luck to Jimmy, I think it's a great thing for a young lad to choose to go out on loan to another league system.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Martin Shaw » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:38 am

Sinclair, Ward and Law have all benefitted from being in our academy and are part of Clough's wider first team squad. Caine, Cooper, Ethan Hill also look promising to me.

Knowles hasn't kicked on in the last year as he and his coaches would have liked, and he didn't take his chance in pre-season, as Clough explained. But there is still time for him to come good.

In terms of players coming through from younger age groups, that will take more time. Jamie McGuire told me he is looking after some of the younger age groups.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Sedgwick » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:39 am

Ill also add because of the above "We've had success at youth level, but if that doesn't translate to first team benefit then is it worth the investment?"

Rawson and Gordon played the top level of youth football and are league two players... some others like Max Bird, lee Buchanan, Jayden Bogle, Louie Sibley etc from the same set up have played higher but most at the top of youth football find themselves at league two/one level.. Luke Thomas another.

The success our kids have had is at a much lower level. Much much lower. Our youth team success just isn't even on a level playing field with the standard of league two, its not even close, for those wondering why our youth league champions aren't walking into the first team.

It will take time to bring the right lads through but the chances of it happening regularly are quite slim. I think we have a good youth set up that can do it (develop kids for the first team)
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby kevin kents tasce » Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:40 am

I am have said it for years now and agree with Segewick that academies at our level are pretty much pointless.

Brentford famously scrapped theirs a few years ago and instead concentrated on using data to find rough diamonds on the cheap (relatively speaking).

They then polish them into first team players by giving them meaningful game time in either the first team or B team.

We should follow a similar route in my opinion.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby arsene wengers coat » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:08 am

We all know what happened when we tried to shoehorn in the Youth by appointing the YT manager to first team manager. If they are constantly not good enough to make the grade, why do it? Wouldn't be surprised to never see Knowles play for Mansfield again now.

Martin, there's an argument that Sinclair and Law aren't our academy products as we picked them up after their release from other clubs.

Even when we pour a lot of our resources into these lads, we sign Burke and Stirk who are only 20 and arguably closer to the first team than any of the academy products.

Whether or not we should retain the YT set up, for me it's not an easy one. It gives the club a real anchor into the wider community. But to expect it to produce regularly is unrealistic. Even if we did get a gem, they'd be scouted and sold before they made a first team appearance. I certainly wouldn't put a lot of financial resources into it. Be interesting to know what it's annual running cost is and what the board consider to be VfM.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:28 am

Good luck to Jimmy Knowles (20) on his loan move to Greenock Morton. I can think of players that the Stags have signed from Scotland such as Colin Calderwood and Dave Caldwell but I cannot remember any players being loaned out to Scottish clubs. I'll have to check the records.

Nigel Clough clearly does not fancy Jimmy at the moment and perhaps another youngster, Nathan Caine, may have overtaken him in the pecking order so a loan move will be good for him if he starts regularly. Jimmy has made 0(5) league starts for the Stags and scored 1 goal. He went to Notts County last season but only started 12(15) league games. He scored 6 goals.

Tyrese Sinclair and Jason Law made it into the team last season and they are still in the squad. Tyrese could be the one who ends up playing regularly for the Stags. He has made 7(12) league starts and scored 3 goals. Jason Law has made 12(5) league starts and scored 1 goal. Tyrese came from Blackburn's academy and Jason Law from Carlton Town.

A move away from Field Mill to Altrincham worked wonders for Alistair Smith who made 1(5) league apps and he is now back in the EFL with Sutton United. The last young lad that broke through into the Stags first team and played fairly regularly was Jack Thomas who made 26(27) league apps for the Stags from 2014-2018 and before that it was Liam Marsden with 11(1) league apps from 2014-2016. Tom Naylor made 22(1) league apps from 2009-2012 before moving on to Derby County and he has gone on to play for Burton, Portsmouth and Wigan. He, off course, nearly returned to Field Mill this summer to be Mansfield's biggest earner but he was poached at the last minute by Wigan.

I think you then have to go back to the likes of Alex Baptiste, Jake Buxton, Liam Lawrence, Bobby Hassell, Craig Disley, Lee Williamson etc. They didn't do too bad.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby lifestags » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:36 am

the thing is though, you just need 1 to make it worth your while


so lets say we sell Sinclair for 250k (minimum)

that would cover the cost of the youth team for a while, wouldn't it?

PS-we pick players up from other academies at age 14/15 still classed as our ''youth team'' right?
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:44 am

lifestags wrote:PS-we pick players up from other academies at age 14/15 still classed as our ''youth team'' right?


A lot of our young players are picked up from other academies. Liam Lawrence and Craig Disley were released by Nottingham Forest; and Bobby Hassell and Lee Williamson were released by Derby County.

Jimmy Knowles was released by Nottingham Forest. Alistair Smith was released by West Brom.

It will take a few years to produce our own players but we will get there. Thanks to Steve Hymas and JR, we have great facilities now and I'm sure some local players and parents may decide that they would rather travel to Pleasley for training every night rather than go to Nottingham, Derby, Leicester, Sheffield etc.

Crewe have always produced their own players and Peterborough are having some success as well. The main problem is that your best young talent can be poached for peanuts.

I think having a B team/U23 team made up of non league nuggets, premier/championship cast offs and local young lads is a good idea.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Martin Shaw » Tue Aug 17, 2021 10:54 am

arsene wengers coat wrote:
Martin, there's an argument that Sinclair and Law aren't our academy products as we picked them up after their release from other clubs.


As I said, they benefited from being in our academy.

We picked up Knowles from Nottm Forest by the way, in just the same way.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Sedgwick » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:11 am

lifestags wrote:the thing is though, you just need 1 to make it worth your while


so lets say we sell Sinclair for 250k (minimum)

that would cover the cost of the youth team for a while, wouldn't it?

PS-we pick players up from other academies at age 14/15 still classed as our ''youth team'' right?


Could sell him for a lot more than that and you'd still be losing money, because of all the money spent on previous kids that have been through the system plus education. Only the club really knows this. Imagine it gets harder year on year.

Was it Exeter that sold Watkins for 6 million but they'd spent a few more million on the academy as whole since he joined it at age 10 in 2006 or something like that? Price of football had the example

As time goes on, the sales figure becomes meaningless because unless you're regularly brining a player or two through a year and selling them you'd never catch up vs the cost of the academy unless the whole youth set up cost hardly anything.

Yes if we pick up other released players they can still come through our youth team, most players are picked up at exit trials. We don't need to sign them off a Sunday league club to be "ours"
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby lifestags » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:17 am

Sedgwick wrote:
lifestags wrote:the thing is though, you just need 1 to make it worth your while


so lets say we sell Sinclair for 250k (minimum)

that would cover the cost of the youth team for a while, wouldn't it?

PS-we pick players up from other academies at age 14/15 still classed as our ''youth team'' right?


Could sell him for a lot more than that and you'd still be losing money, because of all the money spent on previous kids that have been through the system plus education. Only the club really knows this. Imagine it gets harder year on year.

Was it Exeter that sold Watkins for 6 million but they'd spent a few more million on the academy as whole since he joined it at age 10 in 2006 or something like that? Price of football had the example

As time goes on, the sales figure becomes meaningless because unless you're regularly brining a player or two through a year and selling them you'd never catch up vs the cost of the academy unless the whole youth set up cost hardly anything.

Yes if we pick up other released players they can still come through our youth team, most players are picked up at exit trials. We don't need to sign them off a Sunday league club to be "ours"



Good points, however, surely if we are picking lads up at 14/15 this would reduce costs? Not having to bring them through from 6 years+ and its just the cost of scholarships
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Sedgwick » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:21 am

lifestags wrote:
Sedgwick wrote:
lifestags wrote:the thing is though, you just need 1 to make it worth your while


so lets say we sell Sinclair for 250k (minimum)

that would cover the cost of the youth team for a while, wouldn't it?

PS-we pick players up from other academies at age 14/15 still classed as our ''youth team'' right?


Could sell him for a lot more than that and you'd still be losing money, because of all the money spent on previous kids that have been through the system plus education. Only the club really knows this. Imagine it gets harder year on year.

Was it Exeter that sold Watkins for 6 million but they'd spent a few more million on the academy as whole since he joined it at age 10 in 2006 or something like that? Price of football had the example

As time goes on, the sales figure becomes meaningless because unless you're regularly brining a player or two through a year and selling them you'd never catch up vs the cost of the academy unless the whole youth set up cost hardly anything.

Yes if we pick up other released players they can still come through our youth team, most players are picked up at exit trials. We don't need to sign them off a Sunday league club to be "ours"



Good points, however, surely if we are picking lads up at 14/15 this would reduce costs? Not having to bring them through from 6 years+ and its just the cost of scholarships


Yeah you're right, id like to know the cost of the academy.. and I'm sure up to a certain age it probably costs no more than running a Sunday league side.

If its not costing much then a few decent sales would probably make it worth it.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Rob » Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:24 am

The costs, now we own our own training ground, are primarily for coaching, I am sure the grants from the FA cover that. I think you are over-estimating the net costs of academies once grants are taken into account Sedgwick. Indeed I am sure it was an FA initiative to fund these centres to encourage the growth of home grown players. I don't think any club would do it otherwise.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby ParisStag » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:09 pm

Sedgwick wrote:Ill also add because of the above "We've had success at youth level, but if that doesn't translate to first team benefit then is it worth the investment?"

Rawson and Gordon played the top level of youth football and are league two players... some others like Max Bird, lee Buchanan, Jayden Bogle, Louie Sibley etc from the same set up have played higher but most at the top of youth football find themselves at league two/one level.. Luke Thomas another.

The success our kids have had is at a much lower level. Much much lower. Our youth team success just isn't even on a level playing field with the standard of league two, its not even close, for those wondering why our youth league champions aren't walking into the first team.

It will take time to bring the right lads through but the chances of it happening regularly are quite slim. I think we have a good youth set up that can do it (develop kids for the first team)


I didn't realise that they'd both been at Derby together. Rawson was there in the academy when Nigel was boss and signed pro the year after the gaffer left. Kel joined that year too.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby gazza1988 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:50 pm

https://www.academyfootball.info/football-academies

That a nice little roundup of it.

So when keaton Ward was poached we got a fee for him.

We were a category 4 academy but moved to category 3 last summer (or the summer before).
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:34 pm

Listened to the first few episodes of the new series of The Hard Truth. Darragh MacAnthony said that a young 18 year old Premier League player is earning £42k per week and during the summer he was offered out on loan to Peterborough as a favour at the bargain price of £15k per week. :lol:

MacAnthony rightly told them to raspberry off.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby MTFCMusings » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:44 pm

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:Listened to the first few episodes of the new series of The Hard Truth. Darragh MacAnthony said that a young 18 year old Premier League player is earning £42k per week and during the summer he was offered out on loan to Peterborough as a favour at the bargain price of £15k per week. :lol:

MacAnthony rightly told them to raspberry off.


15k a week is pretty standard for the Championship I would guess?
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby bear 73 » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:30 pm

Clough is a big believer in the Academy, for small clubs this is their lifeline, Burton has had success with their Academy, and when he became Derby manager his first job was to Bring Darren Wassell into Derby in 2009 as Academy Director with instructions to restructure it, it is now a grade 1 Academy, and Derby have gained many excellent players, Bennett, Hughes
Hendrick, to name just 3, with Hughes and Hendrick selling for £18 million, At Sheff Utd he shown great faith in their Academy.
Moving onto Mansfield Academy with Richard Cooper in charge, Clough is part of the scene and their is a direct link to the first team squad.
Football is a results game and many managers in fear for their jobs focus on the first team, leaving the Academy to just plod on.
Clough is a long term manager with improvement season on season, and in the Academy today is a replacement player in 2023.
Time and Patience is needed for a well run Academy, and this leads to money being saved to enable the cost of transfers were needed.
Jimmy Knowles is part of this process, loaning out our young players, with other clubs helping with costs, 20 years old for a striker is no age, and in 3 years we will have a experienced striker at the tender age of 23,
My best example of this is was Marcus Harness [Burton Albion] at 22 he was a bit part player, Clough gave him another year, At 22 he became a member of the first team squad.
At 23 a offer of Est £1 million came in and he was happy to transfer, so Burton let him go and took the money.
So Jimmy still has a lot to learn, but his future is still in his hands, Good luck.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby chip63 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:38 pm

On the bench today against Kilmarnock, think it's his first time in the squad.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby BoughtonStag71 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:42 pm

chip63 wrote:On the bench today against Kilmarnock, think it's his first time in the squad.


No, he came on against Queen of the South. Not in the squad the following game though.
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby chip63 » Sat Sep 11, 2021 1:46 pm

Cheers
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Re: Knowles joins Greenock Morton on loan

Postby Norman » Sat Sep 11, 2021 7:29 pm

Not pulling any trees up up in the Mickey Mouse league tbh and folks still scream for him to be in the team fgs!
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