Fans/players/management relationship..

[Captain Cunno]

Discussion....

Sat in Sandy's yesterday with a few more Stags fans and we were trying to work out when (some) of our fans, in our view ,turned into some of the worst ,most self entitled fickle bunch in the country leading to riffs with players Bishop etc and rumours of players hating to play at home because of the toxicity..

My (admittedly simplistic) take on the managers since Cox and the players /fans relationship. I'm sure some of you will tear it apart and some will agree ,either way lets debate it like adults and try to not turn it into a slanging match.

Here goes...

Cox
In my view it was generally positive stuff, the atmosphere in the Championship winning season was superb until he showed he was in a little bit over his head in league 2 and with a few Cox out chants towards the end seeing him lose his job.

Murray
It started very positively and everyone was fully behind him until it ultimately turned a little sour due to very defensive ,negative ,6 at the back at home football
Although no Murray out chants If i recall before his sacking.

Evan's.
Was pretty positive again all through his tenure with a good atmosphere in the stands although there were a few snipes from him about the fans like at Colchester away if i recall. He was regularly winning games though so people forget/forgive a lot of things when we are winning. We will leave how he left for another day....

Flitcroft.
This is where slight rumblings started for me especially early on with debate on DF changing to many things from Evan's style of play and ultimately missing out on the play offs completely.
The following season we were winning games regularly so things were forgotten/forgiven again like rumoured failings out behind the scenes with DF and the board over training facilities youth team integration etc.
The atmosphere in the ground was very good probably the best since the conference days although we eventually bottled the end of the season and failed to gain promotion again leading to a divided board sacking DF.

Dempster.
The rot really set in for me under Dempster.
A very devisive appointment, applauded by some (myself included) and criticised by others.
JD needed a strong start but unfortunately did not and the Chorley FA Cup game was the game Bishop said his piece. JD inevitably lost his job do to poor performance and not meeting board objectives set for him.

Coughlin.
GC seemed to be a very positive appointment although a few doubted his credentials/experience. He's not had the greatest start with obvious clear problems behind the scenes which we can all only speculate on.
It's too early to guess how it will go with GC but as we've seen in the past if he starts winning games everything is rosey.
This will not happen until next season ,I think we can all agree with that.


I think the relationship between fans/players/management is still strained a little and GC is holding back massively in what he really wants to say in his interviews but I'm sure it will all come out in the wash eventually.

So.....

Do we have the same amount of deluded fickle fans as any other team.?

Am I looking for something that's not there and our fans great?

Or are our fans genuinely one of the worst in England..

I do look forward to seeing Rob go against the general opinion though

[lifestags]

It started when the expectations went up, probably set up by JR when he said we were going to ''smash the league'

Some fans genuinely expect us to play like Barcelona and win every game.

[MTFCMusings]

In my opinion, a simplistic summary would be that the 'entitlement' has increased as expectation has increased. The more fans are told we have a massive budget and promotion is the aim, the quicker they are to turn when results don't match.

Under Cox nobody realistically expected back to back promotions, and I think it was considered a good season to establish us back in the league. During the second season it was not looking like we would improve so the trigger was pulled.

Murray was expected to consolidate again, and then maybe push towards the play-offs, it wasn't looking like we would so the trigger was pulled.

Evans came in and we though we had a chance of the play-offs, he failed but was given the benefit of the doubt and to build a squad to get promoted. Radfords and manager were guilty of hyping up expectations, when he left we were in a good position but not smashing ht league or looking dead certs for promotion, but we were comfortably in the play-offs.

Flitcroft came in and I would guess the minimum expectation was to make the play-offs, he failed. He was then given the chance to build his own squad and achieve promotion again. He got very close, but ultimately fell short of his objective. The trigger was pulled.

Dempster came in, everyone thought it was a sign that the budget would be reduced and would take a 'quieter approach'. But the Radfords were adamant that the objective was still as it had been. I really don't understand there thinking here. Either lower expectations for the rookie manager or appoint a manager more befitting of a promotion chasing team. Dempster failed, the trigger was pulled (too late).

Coughlan comes in, his objective to me is to build towards next season, basically to drift until the summer when big changes will be forthcoming. A perfect time for us to get our recruitment policy sorted out, but it doesn't look like happening. People are just panicking now because of our league position and taking it out on anyone in sight (board, players, manager), rightly or wrongly.

[bobbystagsfan]

I think it started with the bigger budgets and promotion pushes. Starting with Evans.

Fans expected almost immediate success with money being thrown at big managers and big players on big wages and it just hasn't happened. The longer its gone on, certain fans have become incredibly entitled to thinking we should be winning everything at this level because of the money the club spends. I think this mentality will calm down a bit because most fans have accepted it's nigh on impossible we'll achieve anything from this season but fans will expect a top 7 finish again at the start of next season.

[PEAR CIDER]

Some of the comments i hear from the stands are horrendous. One missed placed pass by a player and that particular player has been stuck off for the rest of the match. There is no room for error when it comes to the fans expectations. Players rarely have 100$% success in everything they do on a pitch.

[SINA STAG]

I think you can throw a blanket from DF to present day manager being the guy to iron out the ground In creases that developed over the months from February last season. Our trip to Notts County was where the fans started to grumble about the lack of effort players not playing for the shirt players showing disrespect to the club by getting in a street fight in the middle of the week. The weak display at MK never mind the last few home games were we could have tied up the promotion before we went to the MK Doms.

JD was never the answer to the sacking of DF imo yes DF should have been shown the door due to failing twice especially with the caliber of players n money at his disposal..JD was the cotton wool of managers for the fans to wrap their feelings up towards JD due to his past record of being a fans favourite as a player.

And in that the older fans remember JD playing for the shirt n matched the effort on show to JD therefore fans turning their frustration n anger towards the players who are stealing a wage.

Now we've got GC new broom sweeps clean already highlighted what's going to change when he wants or doesn't want wants players to stand up n be counted captain to lead from the front n that's just in a month I wonder what the next month will bring.......

TO BE CONTINUED.......

[Sneag]

Win - fans happy
Lose - fans sad

[Dan]

Brilliant post Cunno, completely agree with everything you’ve said.

[PEAR CIDER]

That rubbish followers group hasnt helped.

i've removed myself from it. Fed up of reading the trolling comments all the time. Some legit comments, but mainly over reacting kids hiding behind their ipads

[yaxhamstag]

Grant recruitment and White injury were (for me) the two biggest factors in the downturn. I think DF sacking was very harsh given we missed out on promotion by such a narrow margin. JD appointment was (in hindsight) a bad move and where people started to get really narky.... at the end of the day, he inherited a good squad, swapped Maynard for Tyler, and expectations were that we’d be in a similar position as last season. GC saying the right things and am sure he will sort us out. Once we start winning again and pull away from the trap door, I think the moaning will subside....

Expectations haven’t been well managed since we got back into the league.

[cassellswasmagic]

Some of the comments i hear from the stands are horrendous. One missed placed pass by a player and that particular player has been stuck off for the rest of the match. There is no room for error when it comes to the fans expectations. Players rarely have 100$% success in everything they do on a pitch.

This. I’d rather our players try a forward pass and miss a few than keeping it safe. We must harbour a positive atmosphere for them to keep trying. The players do look scared at home. Some fans are embarrassing, but it’s at every ground and not just ours. Bournemouth fans are turning on Howe and he’s worked miracles imho.

[Spiritater]

Some of the comments i hear from the stands are horrendous. One missed placed pass by a player and that particular player has been stuck off for the rest of the match. There is no room for error when it comes to the fans expectations. Players rarely have 100$% success in everything they do on a pitch.

This. I’d rather our players try a forward pass and miss a few than keeping it safe. We must harbour a positive atmosphere for them to keep trying. The players do look scared at home. Some fans are embarrassing, but it’s at every ground and not just ours. Bournemouth fans are turning on Howe and he’s worked miracles imho.

t'is the same everywhere. You win/get points on a regular basis and everyone's




You lose and look a gutless shambles on a regular basis and everyone's



it will always be thus.

[Amber Andy]

It started when the expectations went up, probably set up by JR when he said we were going to ''smash the league'

Some fans genuinely expect us to play like Barcelona and win every game.

Spot on. Added to being told we had a top three budget.

Expectations went through the roof.

[Beano]

If you think the fans are unhappy, imagine how the Radfords feel.

I don’t think our fans are any better/worse than any other clubs fans tbh and giving players belters on the pitch is nothing new (ask players like Gary Pollard)

The introduction of social media however has created access to public figures/sportsmen/politicians unimaginable 20 years ago, and although this has its advantages, it also provides a platform for the mouth breathers in our society (not all of them kids, I’ve seen a user of this board trolling an England international rugby player on twitter for the heinous crime of not singing the National anthem, this bloke is nearly 60 years old!)

Unless users learn some responsibility, I have no doubt clubs and players will pull back their social media activity, if I was manager, I’d certainly be advising players to give it a miss.

[Spiritater]

But they can't, most'd sooner lose a testicle first, it's like a drug

[Jamie]

Some good posts but for me it started when we went down. We felt entitled to get back under JR and to beat teams at that level. It's not recovered since.

I also dont think it's just a problem we have. Lots of clubs are exactly the same. Social Media has opened the football world to the fans more than ever. We've never been closer or more informed. With that comes more scrutiny and more opinions and then opinions about opinions and on it rolls.

The big difference now is it's easy for people to kick off on here or Facebook, often hiding behind a username. In the past people would just moan to mates or family. The same people saying the same kinda stuff just not publicly.

Getting a little tired of certain sections constantly having a go at the fans though. We are just the same as most other clubs. Have a go at football fans in general but dont for a second think it's just our fans who are like this.

[MutinyOnTheCounty]

Grant recruitment and White injury were (for me) the two biggest factors in the downturn. I think DF sacking was very harsh given we missed out on promotion by such a narrow margin. JD appointment was (in hindsight) a bad move and where people started to get really narky.... at the end of the day, he inherited a good squad, swapped Maynard for Tyler, and expectations were that we’d be in a similar position as last season. GC saying the right things and am sure he will sort us out. Once we start winning again and pull away from the trap door, I think the moaning will subside....

Expectations haven’t been well managed since we got back into the league.

Agree with that Yaxham. My only addendum is that as fans we've seen enough seasons (in and out of L2) to know that big spending does not guarantee success.

For sure it raises expectations, but we've seen numerous examples where progress occurs organically, over a period of time and patience/support.

I'd hope we all realise a hostile negative environment adversely affects results, and remember the examples of where clubs sticking to their guns (with strong managerial appointments) usually prevails over chop n change. Klopp is a great example for me

[EdwinstoweStag]

Stags fans are a complex bunch.

Like me, the majority are time-served sufferers and, whilst we lament the the under-achievement of the last couple of years, we are better able to criticise performance without behaving like vile morons.

Sure, there have always been gobshites at football matches and, in this respect, MTFC is not unique. Ours seem to have become more prominent in recent times and, for this reason, the reputation of our club has suffered.

On the other hand, we have (IMO) some of the best away support - both in numbers, as a percentage of our average home support, and in attitude.

We desperately need someone to assist the owners with a “rally call”. GC could be just the person. I hope that our “complex” supporters can respond positively.

Of course, a couple of good results starting on Saturday would help!

[pemill]

The toxicity started when Evans was around, not surprising though as you put up with him because you'd got an eye on the prize of promotion.The way he left certainly got it going then fuel poured on the fire when DF messed up promotion first time.

[Dan]

This is a Facebook post I made on the 24th November after the Swindon game. It was mostly saying that Dempster wasn’t completely at fault, that the players were also to blame, to give JD a bit more time as well as a lot of what Cunno says above. I’ve put in bold a couple of points which seem quite apt at present. I agree with others that the Evans appointment was the start of it all. Anyway see what you think.


‪I’ve been a Stags fan since 1986 & for as long as I can remember we’ve mainly been rubbish! We’re one of those clubs who are a mid table 4th division side who occasionally threaten to get promoted into the division above. That’s not me being pessimistic, it’s the truth. On the odd occasion we’ve come close we’ve usually bottled it. Whether that be in the play off semi final or finishing 8th, which has happened the past 2 seasons. I’ve seen us lose in every play off semi final we’ve got to (overall) including a very painful one at Saltergate which took me years to get over. We’ve usually been a division (sometimes 2 or 3) below both of our non league neighbours who are currently having their turn in the pit of misery where we stayed for 5 years not so long ago. ‬So really at the moment things are good aren’t they?! Apparently not!

‪My question to my fellow Stags fans is this: When did we become so self righteous?! Why is it we suddenly expect to be in the top 7 now? We’ve got a new manager who has had 19 league games in his entire career. He’s young, he’s learning, he’s making mistakes *gasp* just like EVERY other manager does. Ok he’s sometimes being over cautious, he might be making the wrong substitutions at the wrong times. He may be setting up not to get beat (Mourinho anyone?!) & the football might not be the best while he experiments with his squad. What’s so wrong with that?! Why have we become this spoilt brat who has a tantrum because he’s not getting what he wants immediately? Some of the crap I’ve seen on stagsnet from so called grown men who claim to be ‘supporters’ is nothing short of embarrassing. ‬DEMANDING that someone loses their job! Jesus Christ honestly get a grip of yourselves.

We’ve gone to Swindon today who are top of the league. We’ve chosen an attacking formation & tried to win the game. If you look at their goal it’s down to one player switching off at a key moment giving Doyle the chance to score. That’s not the managers fault. We had chances & even hit the post. The guy on Quest said how well we’d played & that we were unlucky. Lots of Swindon fans have said how good we were & that we were unlucky. Some said we’re the best team they’ve seen this season. But that’s not good enough for some of our ‘fans’. The manager needs sacking because we didn’t win. We’re 9 points off the play offs which could be 11 if Plymouth win their game in hand. Ok it may mean that it’s a tall order to make them this season. But we’re in November. People on stagsnet seem to think that sacking John Dempster will immediately mean we go flying up the table. It doesn’t work like that. Just ask both of our neighbours. Neal Ardley has just celebrated a full year at Notts today. That in itself is a rare event for a Notts manager! He is very experienced at league one & two level yet he couldn’t stop Notts getting relegated last season. The Spireites have had the hugely experienced Martin Allen & John Sheridan but neither of them have done anything of note for them apart from nearly take them down again. So nothing is guaranteed at all.

I really don’t know what people want. The old adage ‘be careful what you wish for’ is so very apt right now for us. I appreciate the owner says he wants promotion (he’s not going to say anything else is he?!) & I appreciate those who go home & away to watch the team who aren’t happy. But theres no guarantees that making a change will make a positive difference.

I actually think the last 2 seasons have brought expectations through the roof. Before Steve Evans came in we were only just keeping our head above water when we got promoted back up from the pit of misery. Paul Cox did a fantastic job getting us promoted then had a decent mid table finish. Adam Murray managed to save us (just) from going back down again & then we’ve had two decent seasons. I think those two seasons have made some fans have unrealistic expectations from a new manager who hasn’t had the best of luck with injuries & suspensions. Maybe it’s just me, but it wouldn’t be the end of the world for me if we finished 15th & had a decent cup run blooding a few youngsters along the way (like we did today). I think social media & the internet has got a lot to answer for in this day of “I want it now” attitude. It’s a shame because John Dempster could end up losing his job before Christmas & then go on to have a really good career elsewhere in the future. He might not. Nobody knows.

Whatever the outcome it’s not very nice being a Stags fan at the moment that’s for sure. But it could be a LOT worse. Some people would do well to remember that.

[Sweden Stag]

I think those two seasons have made some fans have unrealistic expectations from a new manager who hasn’t had the best of luck with injuries & suspensions.

Too true.

[Amber Andy]

The sacking of DF, who got us to the highest league position for many years, has also added to the unrest. Especially what has happened since.

I don't expect Dan or others to agree with me, nevertheless it's a fact.

[Dan]

The sacking of DF, who got us to the highest league position for many years, has also added to the unrest. Especially what has happened since.

I don't expect Dan or others to agree with me, nevertheless it's a fact.

I completely agree with you.

[Sweden Stag]

DF failed twice. Enough said.

[Dan]

DF failed twice. Enough said.

I completely agree with this too.