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Stagsnet report

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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:16 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:My post wasn’t meant to prove or disprove yours Rob, just to provide some comparison.

I think you may have misread the stats though regarding goals scored.


It was bad Maths, I meant 14, not 16 fewer (54 total goals 22/23 v 40 in 17/18). I was referring to all goals scored.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Amber Andy » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:29 pm

Rob wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:
cassellswasmagic wrote:
stag324 wrote:I cannot remember when I last watched a worse game of football than yesterday.

The last dozen games under Cox were terrible![ They were, but didn't we have an injury crisis at that time as well ? Worse still Cox, had one of the lowest budgets in the league that season I seem to recall.


We've never had the lowest budget in the league post Haslam. Cox did have his budget rightly cut as we were going nowhere, but it was still a decent budget, Darren posted the figures a while back.
That season I recall we did have one of the lowest in the league. I think it was because One Call received a fine and the budget was cut.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby five to three » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:48 pm

Amber Andy wrote:
Rob wrote:
Amber Andy wrote:
cassellswasmagic wrote:
stag324 wrote:I cannot remember when I last watched a worse game of football than yesterday.

The last dozen games under Cox were terrible![ They were, but didn't we have an injury crisis at that time as well ? Worse still Cox, had one of the lowest budgets in the league that season I seem to recall.


We've never had the lowest budget in the league post Haslam. Cox did have his budget rightly cut as we were going nowhere, but it was still a decent budget, Darren posted the figures a while back.
That season I recall we did have one of the lowest in the league. I think it was because One Call received a fine and the budget was cut.


Sadly there was some really poor football under Cox. Sat wasn't good but we really have seen worse.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Amber Andy » Mon Mar 27, 2023 6:58 pm

I agree. The problem is, when you are down to the bare bones you simply can't produce the best performances.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:00 pm

Rob wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:My post wasn’t meant to prove or disprove yours Rob, just to provide some comparison.

I think you may have misread the stats though regarding goals scored.


It was bad Maths, I meant 14, not 16 fewer (54 total goals 22/23 v 40 in 17/18). I was referring to all goals scored.


I’m not sure where you’ve got the 40 figure from :lol:

Total goal scored this season so far is 55, in 18/19 at this stage is was 54.
Last edited by MTFCMusings on Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:13 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:
Rob wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:My post wasn’t meant to prove or disprove yours Rob, just to provide some comparison.

I think you may have misread the stats though regarding goals scored.


It was bad Maths, I meant 14, not 16 fewer (54 total goals 22/23 v 40 in 17/18). I was referring to all goals scored.


I’m not sure where you’ve got the 40 figure from :lol:

Total goal scored this season so far is 55, in 17/18 at this stage is was 54.


Now you've lost me, your stats say:


W12 D4 L2 F30 A10 Pts40
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:16 pm

For and Against, not home and away :D

Those are the home game stats for 18/19 after 18 games.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:33 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:For and Against, not home and away :D

Those are the home game stats for 18/19 after 18 games.


Yes I know what F and A mean thanks :lol:

Your stats clearly state we saw 40 goals scored at home (F and A) in the first 18 games of 18/19, compared to a total of 54 goals in the same number of games this season, a difference of 14. Here's your stats again, I've added the bold:

Home form
18/19 after 18 games :
W12 D4 L2 F30 A10 Pts40 (40 total goals)

22/23
W7 D7 L4 F29 A25 Pts 28 (54 total goals)


Are we there yet Dad ;)
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:37 pm

Gotcha :lol:

Sorry, when you were referring to goals scored I thought you meant by us, rather than in total. My mistake.

It’s been a long Monday :D
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 27, 2023 7:43 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:Gotcha :lol:

Sorry, when you were referring to goals scored I thought you meant by us, rather than in total. My mistake.

It’s been a long Monday :D


:lol: To be fair I didn't help by slipping in a random 17/18 for some reason!

I think the overall point remains that whilst goals of course play a part in entertainment, much of what is entertainment is very subjective and cannot be covered purely by statistics - is your side up for it, are they playing on the front foot, are they continually looking to play forward balls, is the formation positive, is the keeper just hoofing it, are they timewasting etc, etc, etc. I don't think we had better players under DF than what we have now, but we were better balanced and played better football, despite the stats showing there have been more goals in our games this season. Clough is a good manager, but his reputation for being on the negative side is not ill-gotten.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:30 pm

Rob wrote:We've never had the lowest budget in the league post Haslam. Cox did have his budget rightly cut as we were going nowhere, but it was still a decent budget, Darren posted the figures a while back.


Your wrong again Rob :lol:

Paul Cox's budget of around £1.6 million in 2013-2014 was cut in half in 2014-2015 to around £800,000 and we had one of the lowest budgets in League 2 for that season and in 2015-2016.

Here is an extract from my previous post:

"The playing budget was only around £600,000 in JR's early years and prospective managers in May/June 2011 including Paul Cox, Justin Edinburgh, Richie Barker, Dave Penney, Paul Hall, Marcus Law and Ronnie Moore were told the playing budget would be around £650,000. It increased to around £1 million after Paul Cox's first season in 2011-2012 and further increased to £1.6 million in 2012-2013. There were then promotion bonuses paid on top. The budget stayed the same for our first season in the EFL in 2013-2014 but was then cut in half to around £800,000 in 2014-2015.

Paul Cox and Adam Murray did very well to keep the Stags in the league in 2014-2015 with the £800,000 playing budget. Paul Cox had to sell our best player Sam Clucas to the Spireites to help the club raise money and he had to recruit players from overseas with no EFL experience like Alex Fisher and Fergus Bell. Micky Moore was Paul Cox and Adam Murray's assistant manager and he describes keeping the Stags in League 2 in 2014-2015 as one of his finest achievements in football. The Stags were 19th when Adam Murray took over as manager and we finished 21st. The Stags had a better record under Paul Cox for the first 17 games. The Stags were arguably lucky to stay up as we lost eight of our last nine games and only finished up with 48 points. The game we did win was a 1-0 home win against Tranmere Rovers who along with Cheltenham were terrible that season and ended up being relegated.

Total Wages for Club (including non playing staff)
2011-2012: £1,344,256 (Paul Cox finished 3rd in National League)
2012-2013: £2,328,070 (Paul Cox won National League)
2013-2014: £2,071,080 (Paul Cox finished 11th in League 2)
2014-2015: £1,486,334 (Paul Cox and Adam Murray finished 21st in League 2)
2015-2016: £1,464,626 (Adam Murray finished 12th in League 2)
2016-2017: £1,884,466 (Adam Murray/Steve Evans finished 12th in League 2)
2017-2018: £3,762,389 (Estimated)* (Steve Evans/David Flitcroft finished 8th in League 2)
2018-2019: £5,015,644 (Estimated)** (David Flitcroft finished 4th in League 2)
2019-2020: £5,706,953 (Estimated)*** (John Dempster/Graham Coughlan finished 21st in League 2)
2020-2021: No information provided in accounts filed at Companies House.

* = £1,600,221 for 6 months from 1st July to 31st December 2017 + £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018).
** = £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018) + £2,853,476 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2019)
*** = Total wages for year ended 31st December 2019"
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Richard Cranium » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:37 pm

5.7mil in 19/20? Jesus flipping christ, that was the worst season I've ever watched aswell, the only good thing about covid was it cutting that season short
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Rob » Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:45 pm

Tippy Tappy Football wrote:
Rob wrote:We've never had the lowest budget in the league post Haslam. Cox did have his budget rightly cut as we were going nowhere, but it was still a decent budget, Darren posted the figures a while back.


Your wrong again Rob :lol:

Paul Cox's budget of around £1.6 million in 2013-2014 was cut in half in 2014-2015 to around £800,000 and we had one of the lowest budgets in League 2 for that season and in 2015-2016.

Here is an extract from my previous post:

"The playing budget was only around £600,000 in JR's early years and prospective managers in May/June 2011 including Paul Cox, Justin Edinburgh, Richie Barker, Dave Penney, Paul Hall, Marcus Law and Ronnie Moore were told the playing budget would be around £650,000. It increased to around £1 million after Paul Cox's first season in 2011-2012 and further increased to £1.6 million in 2012-2013. There were then promotion bonuses paid on top. The budget stayed the same for our first season in the EFL in 2013-2014 but was then cut in half to around £800,000 in 2014-2015.

Paul Cox and Adam Murray did very well to keep the Stags in the league in 2014-2015 with the £800,000 playing budget. Paul Cox had to sell our best player Sam Clucas to the Spireites to help the club raise money and he had to recruit players from overseas with no EFL experience like Alex Fisher and Fergus Bell. Micky Moore was Paul Cox and Adam Murray's assistant manager and he describes keeping the Stags in League 2 in 2014-2015 as one of his finest achievements in football. The Stags were 19th when Adam Murray took over as manager and we finished 21st. The Stags had a better record under Paul Cox for the first 17 games. The Stags were arguably lucky to stay up as we lost eight of our last nine games and only finished up with 48 points. The game we did win was a 1-0 home win against Tranmere Rovers who along with Cheltenham were terrible that season and ended up being relegated.

Total Wages for Club (including non playing staff)
2011-2012: £1,344,256 (Paul Cox finished 3rd in National League)
2012-2013: £2,328,070 (Paul Cox won National League)
2013-2014: £2,071,080 (Paul Cox finished 11th in League 2)
2014-2015: £1,486,334 (Paul Cox and Adam Murray finished 21st in League 2)
2015-2016: £1,464,626 (Adam Murray finished 12th in League 2)
2016-2017: £1,884,466 (Adam Murray/Steve Evans finished 12th in League 2)
2017-2018: £3,762,389 (Estimated)* (Steve Evans/David Flitcroft finished 8th in League 2)
2018-2019: £5,015,644 (Estimated)** (David Flitcroft finished 4th in League 2)
2019-2020: £5,706,953 (Estimated)*** (John Dempster/Graham Coughlan finished 21st in League 2)
2020-2021: No information provided in accounts filed at Companies House.

* = £1,600,221 for 6 months from 1st July to 31st December 2017 + £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018).
** = £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018) + £2,853,476 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2019)
*** = Total wages for year ended 31st December 2019"



Sorry Darren, I said we didn't have the lowest, which we didn't. We've also debated seemingly endlessly the figures as they are total wages and the playing side is not defined but there is no doubt after a pretty poor season he had his budget cut. I very much doubt you believe JR would give any manager a bottom two budget :lol:
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Martin Shaw » Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:06 pm

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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Marky Mark » Mon Mar 27, 2023 11:45 pm

The Bugiel challenge on Hewitt in the first half was a bit weird, Bugiel obviously went in late and Hewitt was in a heap banging the floor in apparent excruciating pain, Bugiel and the referee went over, Bugiel pulled Hewitt up and he was trotting away merrily about 10 seconds after banging the floor in agony. No idea what went off. It was almost as though they’d decided between the 3 of them that Hewitt had made a meal of it and they’d forget it ever happened.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Amber Andy » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:04 am

Rob wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:
Rob wrote:We've never had the lowest budget in the league post Haslam. Cox did have his budget rightly cut as we were going nowhere, but it was still a decent budget, Darren posted the figures a while back.


Your wrong again Rob :lol:

Paul Cox's budget of around £1.6 million in 2013-2014 was cut in half in 2014-2015 to around £800,000 and we had one of the lowest budgets in League 2 for that season and in 2015-2016.

Here is an extract from my previous post:

"The playing budget was only around £600,000 in JR's early years and prospective managers in May/June 2011 including Paul Cox, Justin Edinburgh, Richie Barker, Dave Penney, Paul Hall, Marcus Law and Ronnie Moore were told the playing budget would be around £650,000. It increased to around £1 million after Paul Cox's first season in 2011-2012 and further increased to £1.6 million in 2012-2013. There were then promotion bonuses paid on top. The budget stayed the same for our first season in the EFL in 2013-2014 but was then cut in half to around £800,000 in 2014-2015.

Paul Cox and Adam Murray did very well to keep the Stags in the league in 2014-2015 with the £800,000 playing budget. Paul Cox had to sell our best player Sam Clucas to the Spireites to help the club raise money and he had to recruit players from overseas with no EFL experience like Alex Fisher and Fergus Bell. Micky Moore was Paul Cox and Adam Murray's assistant manager and he describes keeping the Stags in League 2 in 2014-2015 as one of his finest achievements in football. The Stags were 19th when Adam Murray took over as manager and we finished 21st. The Stags had a better record under Paul Cox for the first 17 games. The Stags were arguably lucky to stay up as we lost eight of our last nine games and only finished up with 48 points. The game we did win was a 1-0 home win against Tranmere Rovers who along with Cheltenham were terrible that season and ended up being relegated.

Total Wages for Club (including non playing staff)
2011-2012: £1,344,256 (Paul Cox finished 3rd in National League)
2012-2013: £2,328,070 (Paul Cox won National League)
2013-2014: £2,071,080 (Paul Cox finished 11th in League 2)
2014-2015: £1,486,334 (Paul Cox and Adam Murray finished 21st in League 2)
2015-2016: £1,464,626 (Adam Murray finished 12th in League 2)
2016-2017: £1,884,466 (Adam Murray/Steve Evans finished 12th in League 2)
2017-2018: £3,762,389 (Estimated)* (Steve Evans/David Flitcroft finished 8th in League 2)
2018-2019: £5,015,644 (Estimated)** (David Flitcroft finished 4th in League 2)
2019-2020: £5,706,953 (Estimated)*** (John Dempster/Graham Coughlan finished 21st in League 2)
2020-2021: No information provided in accounts filed at Companies House.

* = £1,600,221 for 6 months from 1st July to 31st December 2017 + £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018).
** = £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018) + £2,853,476 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2019)
*** = Total wages for year ended 31st December 2019"



Sorry Darren, I said we didn't have the lowest, which we didn't. We've also debated seemingly endlessly the figures as they are total wages and the playing side is not defined but there is no doubt after a pretty poor season he had his budget cut. I very much doubt you believe JR would give any manager a bottom two budget :lol:

And I didn't say he had the lowest Rob, I said he had ONE of the lowest.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Bradders » Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:00 am

Rob wrote:
Tippy Tappy Football wrote:
Rob wrote:We've never had the lowest budget in the league post Haslam. Cox did have his budget rightly cut as we were going nowhere, but it was still a decent budget, Darren posted the figures a while back.


Your wrong again Rob :lol:

Paul Cox's budget of around £1.6 million in 2013-2014 was cut in half in 2014-2015 to around £800,000 and we had one of the lowest budgets in League 2 for that season and in 2015-2016.

Here is an extract from my previous post:

"The playing budget was only around £600,000 in JR's early years and prospective managers in May/June 2011 including Paul Cox, Justin Edinburgh, Richie Barker, Dave Penney, Paul Hall, Marcus Law and Ronnie Moore were told the playing budget would be around £650,000. It increased to around £1 million after Paul Cox's first season in 2011-2012 and further increased to £1.6 million in 2012-2013. There were then promotion bonuses paid on top. The budget stayed the same for our first season in the EFL in 2013-2014 but was then cut in half to around £800,000 in 2014-2015.

Paul Cox and Adam Murray did very well to keep the Stags in the league in 2014-2015 with the £800,000 playing budget. Paul Cox had to sell our best player Sam Clucas to the Spireites to help the club raise money and he had to recruit players from overseas with no EFL experience like Alex Fisher and Fergus Bell. Micky Moore was Paul Cox and Adam Murray's assistant manager and he describes keeping the Stags in League 2 in 2014-2015 as one of his finest achievements in football. The Stags were 19th when Adam Murray took over as manager and we finished 21st. The Stags had a better record under Paul Cox for the first 17 games. The Stags were arguably lucky to stay up as we lost eight of our last nine games and only finished up with 48 points. The game we did win was a 1-0 home win against Tranmere Rovers who along with Cheltenham were terrible that season and ended up being relegated.

Total Wages for Club (including non playing staff)
2011-2012: £1,344,256 (Paul Cox finished 3rd in National League)
2012-2013: £2,328,070 (Paul Cox won National League)
2013-2014: £2,071,080 (Paul Cox finished 11th in League 2)
2014-2015: £1,486,334 (Paul Cox and Adam Murray finished 21st in League 2)
2015-2016: £1,464,626 (Adam Murray finished 12th in League 2)
2016-2017: £1,884,466 (Adam Murray/Steve Evans finished 12th in League 2)
2017-2018: £3,762,389 (Estimated)* (Steve Evans/David Flitcroft finished 8th in League 2)
2018-2019: £5,015,644 (Estimated)** (David Flitcroft finished 4th in League 2)
2019-2020: £5,706,953 (Estimated)*** (John Dempster/Graham Coughlan finished 21st in League 2)
2020-2021: No information provided in accounts filed at Companies House.

* = £1,600,221 for 6 months from 1st July to 31st December 2017 + £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018).
** = £2,162,168 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2018) + £2,853,476 (50% of total wages for year ended 31st December 2019)
*** = Total wages for year ended 31st December 2019"



Sorry Darren, I said we didn't have the lowest, which we didn't. We've also debated seemingly endlessly the figures as they are total wages and the playing side is not defined but there is no doubt after a pretty poor season he had his budget cut. I very much doubt you believe JR would give any manager a bottom two budget :lol:

Looks like the budget cut was after the season where Cox managed 11th place in League Two despite having a low budget. 11th place is not so easy to achieve, as subsequent managers have demonstrated quite well, and on that occasion we were 2 points off 8th place. Which is where we sit presently. I don't see that as "pretty poor".
I dispute that the football under Cox was worse than we've seen this week, but certainly the results were good.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Amber Andy » Tue Mar 28, 2023 8:06 am

Paul Cox will always be in my list of top Stags managers. Only one of a few who achieved promotion.
Subsequent managers have had far bigger budgets, than Cox had that season. Yet we are still in league two. Makes you think, what is needed to get to League 1. I think luck plays a significant part.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby young vanish » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:32 am

Adam Murray got a raw deal IMO.
Lowest budget (inflation adjusted) and had to work with what Cox had left behind. He had a lot of criticism at the time but he was heart and soul Mansfield and considering the restricted funds he had to work with nobody could claim he did a bad job. Just not good enough for those quick to moan.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Sandy Pate Best Stag » Tue Mar 28, 2023 10:36 am

young vanish wrote:Adam Murray got a raw deal IMO.
Lowest budget (inflation adjusted) and had to work with what Cox had left behind. He had a lot of criticism at the time but he was heart and soul Mansfield and considering the restricted funds he had to work with nobody could claim he did a bad job. Just not good enough for those quick to moan.


I’ve said this all along and would love to see him back here at some stage. He’s much more experienced now and don’t think it will be long before someone gives him a chance.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Vinnie » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:35 am

young vanish wrote:Adam Murray got a raw deal IMO.
Lowest budget (inflation adjusted) and had to work with what Cox had left behind. He had a lot of criticism at the time but he was heart and soul Mansfield and considering the restricted funds he had to work with nobody could claim he did a bad job. Just not good enough for those quick to moan.


Whilst I wasn't too fussed when Murray left, I've been thinking recently where would we be if he had the same resources given those appointed after?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing of course, but I can't see how he would have fared any worse.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:47 am

Rob wrote:Sorry Darren, I said we didn't have the lowest, which we didn't. We've also debated seemingly endlessly the figures as they are total wages and the playing side is not defined but there is no doubt after a pretty poor season he had his budget cut. I very much doubt you believe JR would give any manager a bottom two budget :lol:


Rob. You said that Paul Cox had a decent budget in 2014-2015 when he had one of the lowest budgets in League 2 of around £800,000. You also said he had a poor season in 2013-2014 when we finished 11th on 60 points. We finished level with Plymouth and above Portsmouth. We finished 11 points off York City in 7th. Many fans think we might have made the play offs if we had kept a fit Matt Green. We had to replace him with a young Ollie Palmer who was learning the ropes in the EFL. We also signed no players in the January transfer window.

You also forget that JR had to reduce One Call's support for the football club in January 2014 from £100,000 per month to £34,000 per month which resulted in no January signings. JR said he had to cut the club's cloth accordingly and he appealed for new investors. This then resulted in Paul Cox's playing budget being halved in 2014-2015 to around £800,000.

See
https://www.stagsnet.net/news/newsdetai ... ewsid=7446
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Mar 28, 2023 11:59 am

young vanish wrote:Adam Murray got a raw deal IMO. Lowest budget (inflation adjusted) and had to work with what Cox had left behind. He had a lot of criticism at the time but he was heart and soul Mansfield and considering the restricted funds he had to work with nobody could claim he did a bad job. Just not good enough for those quick to moan.


Adam Murray did a great job in 2015-2016 to finish 12th in League 2 with a playing budget of around £800,000-£1,000,000 which was one of the lowest in League 2. We were challenging for the play offs until the end of February. We then only won three out of our remaining 13 games. This has become a familiar theme. Adam Murray was sacked the following season in November 2016 when the Stags were 22nd (P16 W4 D7 L5) after a 4-0 away defeat at Portsmouth when the Stags had two players sent off in the 2nd half. He had a decent record away from home but paid the price for “dull defensive home performances”.

Adam Murray was replaced by Steve Evans and it was only then that JR decided to go for it and drastically increase the playing budget. It was then increased even further under David Flitcroft and John Dempster.


If Nigel Clough ever leaves us then I'd be happy to give Adam Murray another go as manager with the higher league experience and contacts he has made since he left us.

However I would happily give Nigel Clough another 2 year contract. He is improving our squad and he should take us up eventually with a bit of luck. We have been very unlucky with injuries this season.I hope he is not like Mark Cooper who kept knocking on the door for FGR and then Edwards took them up the season after he left.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby MTFCMusings » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:19 pm

We were 18th when Adam Murray left Darren, not 22nd. We were 3pts above 23rd but also 3pts from 7th.
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Re: Stagsnet report

Postby Tippy Tappy Football » Tue Mar 28, 2023 12:32 pm

Thanks Sam.

That was a tight league. 3 points seperating 6th-18th; and 6 points from 6th-23rd.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37881324
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