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Next Season

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Re: Next Season

Postby zod » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:21 pm

CassellsCap wrote:There were 4,000 of us at Sheffield and the football we played against a very high profile expensive team was a joy to see. We were the better side for long periods of that game and even the home fans agree with that... We are lucky to have Nigel Clough . Mansfield Town is a stable club and stability brings success.


Agreed, whilst it was disappointing to lose the game we were the better side for the majority of it.
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Re: Next Season

Postby Costastag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:24 pm

I dont want him sacked ,but equally i don't think he is taking us anywhere ,and his stubborness is i think going to be the cause of his downfall ,but if he fails this year i think its time for a change unless he delivers in the january window which im not sure he will because of his own stubborness
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Re: Next Season

Postby scotsstag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:12 pm

broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:
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Re: Next Season

Postby Rob » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:24 pm

scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Nobody on this thread has said sack him now, so he can point to it all he likes as all it will show is fans actually saying don't sack him. He should be a government minister.
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Re: Next Season

Postby yorkshire stag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:46 pm

Rob wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Nobody on this thread has said sack him now, so he can point to it all he likes as all it will show is fans actually saying don't sack him. He should be a government minister.


i’d wait until after tomorrows game first Roberto :lol:
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Re: Next Season

Postby Costastag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:25 pm

Tbh i can understand the frustration of those happy with the direction of our season at us apparent moaners
I just wish they could accept our concerns as easily
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Re: Next Season

Postby Dave Wayne » Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:43 pm

Rob wrote:
Dave Wayne wrote:I seem to quite clearly remember a long thread on here clamouring for Clough to get O'Toole signed up when his initial short term contract was coming to an end, and how relieved everyone was when it was sorted.

Bowery was the whipping boy on here when he first signed but last season he showed much better form and I don't remember any complaints when his contract was extended in the summer.

Likewise, Perch and Quinn also signed contract extensions and the general response was one of positivity.

Can someone please explain why Clough is expected to have a crystal ball and be able to predict drops in form and injury problems when none of the experts on here are able to do so ?


To be fair Dave we did predict what would happen, if you look back through the posts just before the deadline past many of us were saying the squad was too small and we desperately needed 2 centre backs and a striker. Had we signed those players and they had been better than some of the duffs Clough has signed, then I think we would be much higher in the league. Instead of signing a centre back we signed Hartigan, now what would you sooner have right now? It's absolutely not hindsight, this is what we were warning months ago and sadly what many of us predicted has happened. Our squad is too old, too slow, too small, imbalanced and lacking cover in key areas - in short it is not a squad representative of the budget the manager has been given. Our first eleven is very, very good, but you will never, ever be able to field your first eleven for 46 games so the squad composition is vital and it is abundantly clear Clough and his team have this wrong. Our very best players remain those here before Clough and co came to the club, which in itself is disappointing. Our performance last night 2nd half and at Harrogate was every bit as bad as anything under Coughlan and Dempster and after a great few months last season I do not think we have progressed.

I'm not one for sacking managers but for me Clough has January to sort this mess out, if he doesn't there is no way on earth would I be offering him a new deal in the summer and would be looking for a younger more ambitious manager, one prepared to blood younger players and one who knew that a right back is best played at right back etc, etc.

All fair comments Rob, but nowhere in my post did I suggest that there not some obvious gaps in the squad which he had failed to fill.
All I was pointing out is that on numerous threads, including this one, there are comments suggesting that certain players within the squad are not good enough/past their prime, yet most of the contract extensions were met with positive reactions at the time. For people to now slate Clough for extending contracts that they previously applauded is rather hypocritical, but nothing less than I expect from this forum at times.
I don't have much knowledge of other clubs forums as I have no interest in them, so maybe a question for broomo - we all know that football fans can be very fickle, but are other forums as toxic as Stagsnet appears to be at times ?
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Re: Next Season

Postby Rob » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:10 pm

Dave Wayne wrote:
Rob wrote:
Dave Wayne wrote:I seem to quite clearly remember a long thread on here clamouring for Clough to get O'Toole signed up when his initial short term contract was coming to an end, and how relieved everyone was when it was sorted.

Bowery was the whipping boy on here when he first signed but last season he showed much better form and I don't remember any complaints when his contract was extended in the summer.

Likewise, Perch and Quinn also signed contract extensions and the general response was one of positivity.

Can someone please explain why Clough is expected to have a crystal ball and be able to predict drops in form and injury problems when none of the experts on here are able to do so ?


To be fair Dave we did predict what would happen, if you look back through the posts just before the deadline past many of us were saying the squad was too small and we desperately needed 2 centre backs and a striker. Had we signed those players and they had been better than some of the duffs Clough has signed, then I think we would be much higher in the league. Instead of signing a centre back we signed Hartigan, now what would you sooner have right now? It's absolutely not hindsight, this is what we were warning months ago and sadly what many of us predicted has happened. Our squad is too old, too slow, too small, imbalanced and lacking cover in key areas - in short it is not a squad representative of the budget the manager has been given. Our first eleven is very, very good, but you will never, ever be able to field your first eleven for 46 games so the squad composition is vital and it is abundantly clear Clough and his team have this wrong. Our very best players remain those here before Clough and co came to the club, which in itself is disappointing. Our performance last night 2nd half and at Harrogate was every bit as bad as anything under Coughlan and Dempster and after a great few months last season I do not think we have progressed.

I'm not one for sacking managers but for me Clough has January to sort this mess out, if he doesn't there is no way on earth would I be offering him a new deal in the summer and would be looking for a younger more ambitious manager, one prepared to blood younger players and one who knew that a right back is best played at right back etc, etc.

All fair comments Rob, but nowhere in my post did I suggest that there not some obvious gaps in the squad which he had failed to fill.
All I was pointing out is that on numerous threads, including this one, there are comments suggesting that certain players within the squad are not good enough/past their prime, yet most of the contract extensions were met with positive reactions at the time. For people to now slate Clough for extending contracts that they previously applauded is rather hypocritical, but nothing less than I expect from this forum at times.
I don't have much knowledge of other clubs forums as I have no interest in them, so maybe a question for broomo - we all know that football fans can be very fickle, but are other forums as toxic as Stagsnet appears to be at times ?


Yes I realise what you were saying Dave and I agree about things like the contract given to O'Toole which was clearly the right thing to do at the time. I think all forums in my experience flit from joy to anger almost every week, we are no different. My frustration, as it was under previous managers, is we have a great owner and have a competitive advantage over most of league 2 for the first time probably ever, yet managers continue to waste this advantage. We've been Div 4 for ten years despite huge investment from JR, that's what makes me angry.
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Re: Next Season

Postby Marky Mark » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:12 pm

Our best starting XI wins this league, our midfield is the best midfield in this league. I think now that JJOT and Perch have hit the wall our back up defenders have begun to leave us short, and I think when any of those two are playing then our midfield start to become more concerned with covering than being on the front foot, and then that makes us look weak attacking wise too. We saw how we played with Hawkins, Harbottle and Hewitt at the back v Sheff Weds, any other variation at the back and we struggle - no coincidence that when Gordon and Macca went off too the other night that we had no forward movement.
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:36 pm

scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Such a stupid response. Not surprised in the slightest.
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:40 pm

Rob wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Nobody on this thread has said sack him now, so he can point to it all he likes as all it will show is fans actually saying don't sack him. He should be a government minister.


This thread and a couple of others.

Now? Before January? After January or in the summer some folk want him gone.

Are you seriously saying all you can see is people saying don't sack him?

Goodness me, that's a stretch.
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Re: Next Season

Postby Rob » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:46 pm

Again, no-one has said sack him, so you were wrong. Saying you wouldn't offer him a new contract in the summer if we do not make the play-offs is very, very different. Goodness you indeed.
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Re: Next Season

Postby Costastag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:47 pm

broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Such a stupid response. Not surprised in the slightest.

Broomo we are stags fans its been a tough old gig ,never been great well apart from the late 70s ,but if you really feel so strongly about it ,leave it ok nigel was a great manager and lucas must have been good once but they arenot doing it here hence our frustration ,we dont like to be told how stupid we are or how we dont appreciate the best thing that ever happened to our club its our club and we will air our views
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Re: Next Season

Postby scotsstag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:53 pm

broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Such a stupid response. Not surprised in the slightest.

Them nasty men not loving me and Nige anymore :lol: :lol:
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Re: Next Season

Postby Tomwh » Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:54 pm

Broomo, do you see any issues with the squad and the performances of late at all? You keep mentioning last year, and our position now, however even throughout our barren run last year there were signs of a good footballing side. Currently, we seem to be on a downward spiral, and a lot of our good results this season came from poor performances.

I'm not sure what you expect this forum to be, just a few threads a week talking about how much of an honour it is to have Clough as our manager?

The squad is not balanced, our defence is slow, and team selections are getting weirder and weirder. Are these not valid criticisms?
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Re: Next Season

Postby Amber Andy » Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:41 pm

Costastag wrote:As far as being qualified to comment like ashover stag ,we are going nowhere ,we might as well just forget any ambition under cloughie ,i got slated for my backing of coughlan ,but nigel is taking us nowhere in fact the only good players are coughlans signings lets just get to the end of the season and it must be adios amigo

How can you compare Clough with Coughlan ? You may be right that Clough isn't taking us anywhere, but Coughlan was taking us somewhere called tha National League.
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:12 pm

Tomwh wrote:Broomo, do you see any issues with the squad and the performances of late at all? You keep mentioning last year, and our position now, however even throughout our barren run last year there were signs of a good footballing side. Currently, we seem to be on a downward spiral, and a lot of our good results this season came from poor performances.

I'm not sure what you expect this forum to be, just a few threads a week talking about how much of an honour it is to have Clough as our manager?

The squad is not balanced, our defence is slow, and team selections are getting weirder and weirder. Are these not valid criticisms?


Of course I see issues, I'd have to be blind not to. I certainly didn't expect this slump and thought we'd be cemented in the top 6.

I thought Perch and O'Toole would cope much better than they have when needed. I hoped Macca would stay fit as he did for most of last season.

I expected Lucas to have a decent season, admittedly playing alongside Oates and he's performed below average on the whole.

I thought Boateng would take the league by storm, he hasn't.

I wish people would stop with this line that I think Mansfield are honoured and should bow down to Nigel for being here. I like the club on the whole, he's the manager at this given time, no more no less. He's not god (there was only ever one of those in the Clough househole)

I see some selections as strange, some as necessity.

But I'll remind everyone of the good runs he's put together, the records he has broken, I'll remind everyone that this squad is more than capable of stringing a couple of sets of 5 wins on the bounce together and I'll remind everyone we are still on track to finish in the play offs (hopefully better) for the second season in a row and that doesn't happen too often at Mansfield Town.

The winning runs aren't flukes, he doesn't suddenly forget how to manage when we lose a couple and irrespective of what Rob says, there are too many discussions around getting rid and bringing in a "younger" a "more ambitious" a "better man manager" a "manager who doesn't just play his mates or has beens" for my liking and about a manager who on the whole is doing a decent (not world beating) job.

He either chooses to or deliberately ignores them to continue what seems to be turning into a semi personal argument. Now he can say no-one wants him sacked as much as he wants but all of the above have been posted on here within the last fortnight.

I hope we sign a centre half in January so I've changed my mind on that.

You can be sure if he does sign one it will be because he (like me) has recognised Perch and O'Toole are struggling and he (like me) is probably surprised and disappointed by that.

It won't be because he logged on to Stagsnet, read the posts and thought "raspberry me, why didn't I think of that"
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:12 pm

scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Such a stupid response. Not surprised in the slightest.

Them nasty men not loving me and Nige anymore :lol: :lol:


Again a stupid response and again not surprising.
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:21 pm

Dave Wayne wrote:
Rob wrote:
Dave Wayne wrote:I seem to quite clearly remember a long thread on here clamouring for Clough to get O'Toole signed up when his initial short term contract was coming to an end, and how relieved everyone was when it was sorted.

Bowery was the whipping boy on here when he first signed but last season he showed much better form and I don't remember any complaints when his contract was extended in the summer.

Likewise, Perch and Quinn also signed contract extensions and the general response was one of positivity.

Can someone please explain why Clough is expected to have a crystal ball and be able to predict drops in form and injury problems when none of the experts on here are able to do so ?


To be fair Dave we did predict what would happen, if you look back through the posts just before the deadline past many of us were saying the squad was too small and we desperately needed 2 centre backs and a striker. Had we signed those players and they had been better than some of the duffs Clough has signed, then I think we would be much higher in the league. Instead of signing a centre back we signed Hartigan, now what would you sooner have right now? It's absolutely not hindsight, this is what we were warning months ago and sadly what many of us predicted has happened. Our squad is too old, too slow, too small, imbalanced and lacking cover in key areas - in short it is not a squad representative of the budget the manager has been given. Our first eleven is very, very good, but you will never, ever be able to field your first eleven for 46 games so the squad composition is vital and it is abundantly clear Clough and his team have this wrong. Our very best players remain those here before Clough and co came to the club, which in itself is disappointing. Our performance last night 2nd half and at Harrogate was every bit as bad as anything under Coughlan and Dempster and after a great few months last season I do not think we have progressed.

I'm not one for sacking managers but for me Clough has January to sort this mess out, if he doesn't there is no way on earth would I be offering him a new deal in the summer and would be looking for a younger more ambitious manager, one prepared to blood younger players and one who knew that a right back is best played at right back etc, etc.

All fair comments Rob, but nowhere in my post did I suggest that there not some obvious gaps in the squad which he had failed to fill.
All I was pointing out is that on numerous threads, including this one, there are comments suggesting that certain players within the squad are not good enough/past their prime, yet most of the contract extensions were met with positive reactions at the time. For people to now slate Clough for extending contracts that they previously applauded is rather hypocritical, but nothing less than I expect from this forum at times.
I don't have much knowledge of other clubs forums as I have no interest in them, so maybe a question for broomo - we all know that football fans can be very fickle, but are other forums as toxic as Stagsnet appears to be at times ?


Pretty much yes.

Even at Burton when they were breaking records right left and centre there was a core group of people wanting rid every season. One lad even hung a Clough out poster on the Pirelli fence and STILL kept posting on the forum as if he knew what he was talking about.

It's not new, I don't do myself many favours 'cos I speak out about it and always will. I know that leaves me open to stick but as long as it's not personal I can accept that.

Sadly I can guarantee one thing, even IF he gets Mansfield up at least half a dozen of the same posters will be saying sack him, he's taken us as far as he can, after 6 league one games.
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Re: Next Season

Postby diablo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:30 pm

CassellsCap wrote:There were 4,000 of us at Sheffield and the football we played against a very high profile expensive team was a joy to see. We were the better side for long periods of that game and even the home fans agree with that... We are lucky to have Nigel Clough . Mansfield Town is a stable club and stability brings success.



Whilst I agree we put in an improved performance and played some decent football against Sheffield Wednesday , the hard fact is we lost the game, along with a hefty chunk of prize money and a sell out gate against Newcastle had we held on for the last few minutes. Similar story against Everton's kids
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Re: Next Season

Postby scotsstag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:41 pm

broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:Next time I get stick and people respond by saying no-one wants him sacked I'll remind folk of this thread (and no doubt I'll take more stick).

There are clearly posters who want him fired. One point off the playoffs and more than enough games to push top 3.

Madness.

Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Such a stupid response. Not surprised in the slightest.

Them nasty men not loving me and Nige anymore :lol: :lol:


Again a stupid response and again not surprising.

Actually broomo what is/was stupid and actually disgusting is the fact that you consciously and continually stole from the very family that took you into their home and gave you the love and the chances in life that millions of kids from all over the country could only dream of.
THAT'S stupid, and the fact that you have found some kind of minor celebrity from the disgraceful deed makes me sick.
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:59 pm

scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:
broomo wrote:
scotsstag wrote:Yawn, poor little broomo and Nigel :roll:


Such a stupid response. Not surprised in the slightest.

Them nasty men not loving me and Nige anymore :lol: :lol:


Again a stupid response and again not surprising.

Actually broomo what is/was stupid and actually disgusting is the fact that you consciously and continually stole from the very family that took you into their home and gave you the love and the chances in life that millions of kids from all over the country could only dream of.
THAT'S stupid, and the fact that you have found some kind of minor celebrity from the disgraceful deed makes me sick.


It was more than 30 years ago.

What will probably make you even more sick is it has been shortlisted for every major sportsbook award in the industry and yesterday won £3,000 for finishing in the top 5 of the Williiam Hill SBOTY, THE most prestigious award there is.

It'll probably also make you sick to know I'm using £1,000 of that to pay for 10 under privileged children to be mascots at the Northampton game on Boxing Day, £1,000 to do the same for 10 kids at Sunderlands home game on boxing day and that so far that takes it to £14,500 given to children's charities, more than 100% of book proceeds.

I haven't found (or sought) fame, the book has, I haven't hidden from what WE (not just me) did and every interview I've done has been to raise awareness and promote the book hoping to benefit charity and hoping to change even one poor kids life, even in a tiny way.

I'm sure though you'll have done all of that and more, being the lovely fella you are.

I hope I keep making you sick.
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Re: Next Season

Postby scotsstag » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:09 pm

What an absolute behemoth of a self publicist ego you are..
Please forgive me for not instantly taking a knee :roll: :lol:
That's me done, I won't engage with you any further broomo.
Best for the forum all round I think..
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Re: Next Season

Postby broomo » Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:20 pm

scotsstag wrote:What an absolute behemoth of a self publicist ego you are..
Please forgive me for not instantly taking a knee :roll: :lol:
That's me done, I won't engage with you any further broomo.
Best for the forum all round I think..


Typical. So you can slate me about something that happened 30 years ago and when I post a detailed reply to say maybe I'm not the raspberry person you assume I am, it's for self publicity

You think you can just throw raspberries around and not expect me to come back with a response.

Hopefully you don't engage again. You're not the kind of person I like to waste my time on.

Stick to abusing Lucas Akins over and over, he's not on here to answer you back, you're a typical keyboard warrior coward.
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Re: Next Season

Postby Tomwh » Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:08 am

broomo wrote:
Tomwh wrote:Broomo, do you see any issues with the squad and the performances of late at all? You keep mentioning last year, and our position now, however even throughout our barren run last year there were signs of a good footballing side. Currently, we seem to be on a downward spiral, and a lot of our good results this season came from poor performances.

I'm not sure what you expect this forum to be, just a few threads a week talking about how much of an honour it is to have Clough as our manager?

The squad is not balanced, our defence is slow, and team selections are getting weirder and weirder. Are these not valid criticisms?


Of course I see issues, I'd have to be blind not to. I certainly didn't expect this slump and thought we'd be cemented in the top 6.

I thought Perch and O'Toole would cope much better than they have when needed. I hoped Macca would stay fit as he did for most of last season.

I expected Lucas to have a decent season, admittedly playing alongside Oates and he's performed below average on the whole.

I thought Boateng would take the league by storm, he hasn't.

I wish people would stop with this line that I think Mansfield are honoured and should bow down to Nigel for being here. I like the club on the whole, he's the manager at this given time, no more no less. He's not god (there was only ever one of those in the Clough househole)

I see some selections as strange, some as necessity.

But I'll remind everyone of the good runs he's put together, the records he has broken, I'll remind everyone that this squad is more than capable of stringing a couple of sets of 5 wins on the bounce together and I'll remind everyone we are still on track to finish in the play offs (hopefully better) for the second season in a row and that doesn't happen too often at Mansfield Town.

The winning runs aren't flukes, he doesn't suddenly forget how to manage when we lose a couple and irrespective of what Rob says, there are too many discussions around getting rid and bringing in a "younger" a "more ambitious" a "better man manager" a "manager who doesn't just play his mates or has beens" for my liking and about a manager who on the whole is doing a decent (not world beating) job.

He either chooses to or deliberately ignores them to continue what seems to be turning into a semi personal argument. Now he can say no-one wants him sacked as much as he wants but all of the above have been posted on here within the last fortnight.

I hope we sign a centre half in January so I've changed my mind on that.

You can be sure if he does sign one it will be because he (like me) has recognised Perch and O'Toole are struggling and he (like me) is probably surprised and disappointed by that.

It won't be because he logged on to Stagsnet, read the posts and thought "raspberry me, why didn't I think of that"


My biggest concern is that the issues are getting worse, and if he's being honest in his interviews he thinks the squad is fine, which it just isn't.

If he does sign a centre half in January it's because (like everyone that knows pretty much anything about football) we desperately need one. I can't believe after the playoff final he stuck with Hawkins at the back, and has been trying the likes of Clarke and bowery there too.

He's recently had Oates at RW, Akins and Bowery both as wing backs, Maris moved around the pitch when he's our best player as a deep playmaker by a country mile. Akins is turning out to be one of the most disappointing signings I've known, yet he's playing 90 every week.

The strange selections, which you mention at times have been necessities - are entirely self inflicted. We're over 2 years into his reign, the problems that we had 2 years ago are mostly the problems we still have now, and it seems they are getting worse not better.

I sincerely hope we do go on a winning run, but based on the performances we've seen, Clough's comments, his own recent performances, it looks unlikely. If we don't go on a good run, and we don't fix the squad issues in January, surely even you can see it might be the time for him to go?

He'll get until the summer, I'm pretty sure, and I think that's maybe right. However anything less than top 7 this year and I'd say his time here would end up being pretty unsuccessful.
Tomwh
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