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Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby arsene wengers coat » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:19 pm

Good old Adam Murray, as we know played a very negative game, but assembled a squad on a limited budget, several of his players are still in the team today. Murray's football however was very risk averse, negative and we drew a lot of games.

"The Messiah" aka the Lying Scottsman came in, branded Murray's signings as rubbish, promised us promotion, spent a fortune, but persisted with Murray's signings who all had good seasons under Evans last year. Names like Rose, Pearce, CJ, and Bennett. However, we drew too often and continued to struggle to score.

After Evans left, we capitulated. Flitcroft had to guide us over the line using a formation and method he wasn't happy with. This showed.

But now, even with flitcrofts pre season training and all the investment into playing staff, flitcroft has the same approach to the game as Murray but with arguably better players in the squad at his disposal. However, Murray's signings are still our better players.

So if flitcroft plays the same football as Murray, with several of Murray's players, are we surprised that the season is panning out the same as it did for Murray? The methods are different but the outputs are the same.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby m1cksut » Sun Sep 23, 2018 2:34 pm

arsene wengers coat wrote:Good old Adam Murray, as we know played a very negative game, but assembled a squad on a limited budget, several of his players are still in the team today. Murray's football however was very risk averse, negative and we drew a lot of games.

"The Messiah" aka the Lying Scottsman came in, branded Murray's signings as rubbish, promised us promotion, spent a fortune, but persisted with Murray's signings who all had good seasons under Evans last year. Names like Rose, Pearce, CJ, and Bennett. However, we drew too often and continued to struggle to score.

After Evans left, we capitulated. Flitcroft had to guide us over the line using a formation and method he wasn't happy with. This showed.

But now, even with flitcrofts pre season training and all the investment into playing staff, flitcroft has the same approach to the game as Murray but with arguably better players in the squad at his disposal. However, Murray's signings are still our better players.

So if flitcroft plays the same football as Murray, with several of Murray's players, are we surprised that the season is panning out the same as it did for Murray? The methods are different but the outputs are the same.


sort of mutually exclusive, but i think i see what you are trying to say.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby EdwinstoweStag » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:10 pm

m1cksut wrote:
arsene wengers coat wrote:Good old Adam Murray, as we know played a very negative game, but assembled a squad on a limited budget, several of his players are still in the team today. Murray's football however was very risk averse, negative and we drew a lot of games.

"The Messiah" aka the Lying Scottsman came in, branded Murray's signings as rubbish, promised us promotion, spent a fortune, but persisted with Murray's signings who all had good seasons under Evans last year. Names like Rose, Pearce, CJ, and Bennett. However, we drew too often and continued to struggle to score.

After Evans left, we capitulated. Flitcroft had to guide us over the line using a formation and method he wasn't happy with. This showed.

But now, even with flitcrofts pre season training and all the investment into playing staff, flitcroft has the same approach to the game as Murray but with arguably better players in the squad at his disposal. However, Murray's signings are still our better players.

So if flitcroft plays the same football as Murray, with several of Murray's players, are we surprised that the season is panning out the same as it did for Murray? The methods are different but the outputs are the same.


sort of mutually exclusive, but i think i see what you are trying to say.
6/10 can do better.


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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby m1cksut » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:55 pm

EdwinstoweStag wrote:
m1cksut wrote:
arsene wengers coat wrote:Good old Adam Murray, as we know played a very negative game, but assembled a squad on a limited budget, several of his players are still in the team today. Murray's football however was very risk averse, negative and we drew a lot of games.

"The Messiah" aka the Lying Scottsman came in, branded Murray's signings as rubbish, promised us promotion, spent a fortune, but persisted with Murray's signings who all had good seasons under Evans last year. Names like Rose, Pearce, CJ, and Bennett. However, we drew too often and continued to struggle to score.

After Evans left, we capitulated. Flitcroft had to guide us over the line using a formation and method he wasn't happy with. This showed.

But now, even with flitcrofts pre season training and all the investment into playing staff, flitcroft has the same approach to the game as Murray but with arguably better players in the squad at his disposal. However, Murray's signings are still our better players.

So if flitcroft plays the same football as Murray, with several of Murray's players, are we surprised that the season is panning out the same as it did for Murray? The methods are different but the outputs are the same.


sort of mutually exclusive, but i think i see what you are trying to say.
6/10 can do better.


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you REALLY think so?

truly?




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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby DoomMerchant » Sun Sep 23, 2018 7:48 pm

This team will go up. I see it in the waters. And trust me, I pass plenty of water.

Stags fans need to wipe their eyes and learn to be patient. It'll click.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Sneag » Sun Sep 23, 2018 8:45 pm

DoomMerchant wrote:This team will go up. I see it in the waters. And trust me, I pass plenty of water.

Stags fans need to wipe their eyes and learn to be patient. It'll click.


It has the potential, but summat seems to be holding it back. ;)
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby MutinyOnTheCounty » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:04 pm

Sneag wrote:
DoomMerchant wrote:This team will go up. I see it in the waters. And trust me, I pass plenty of water.

Stags fans need to wipe their eyes and learn to be patient. It'll click.


It has the potential, but summat seems to be holding it back. ;)


Don't be so hard on yourself, I don't think your influence spreads THAT far, Sneagy :P
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Bradders » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:30 pm

arsene wengers coat wrote:"The Messiah" aka the Lying Scottsman came in, branded Murray's signings as rubbish, promised us promotion, spent a fortune, but persisted with Murray's signings who all had good seasons under Evans last year. Names like Rose, Pearce, CJ, and Bennett. However, we drew too often and continued to struggle to score.

This undermines your point rather! Last 5 league home games before Evans' last game in charge (the Coventry match, where I believe he'd already lost interest due to the Peterborough shenanigans);

W 2-1 W 3-1 W 3-2 W 3-1 W 5-0

Not too many draws in there, and not really struggling to score, were they? The away matches in the same period resulted in one draw, one win and one loss. And Evans allowing Murray's players to flourish - is that really poor management?

When Flitcroft arrived, he also made the claim that the team were drawing too much and that he was going to sort that out as a priority. This immediately led to three 1-1 draws in a row, and a remarkable total of six 1-1 draws in the last 12 league matches.
I'm not in the Flitcroft Out camp and I don't think that Evans was a messiah either, but at least give him his due as a Stags manager. As many point out, Evans's team weren't exactly setting the league on fire at this stage last season but went on to look like the best side in the division and put together an impressive run of results, leading to an excellent league position by the time he jumped ship.
At the moment I'm not particularly impressed by Flitcroft, but he needs time to prove that he can perform the same feat as Evans and get the team firing on all cylinders.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby arsene wengers coat » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:17 am

We drew 18 last season. Only Morecambe drew more and the finished just above the trap door.

The draws were our undoing. The last 3 managers have all suffered from the same problems regardless of budget formation or football philosophy.

I dare say under Murray we were more clinical Infront of goal, given that we rarely ventured into the opposition's half. At the moment we seem to be able to create chances but can't finish or hold on to a lead.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby PRL13 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:22 am

If we don`t start winning, relegation is more likely than promotion!
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Stag95 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:56 am

Murray could clearly pick a player but he was the most negative manager I can ever remember at the club.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby ST4GS » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:30 am

Stag95 wrote:Murray could clearly pick a player but he was the most negative manager I can ever remember at the club.
The home defeat to Bristol Rovers when we dominated was a watershed. After that game Murray went ultra negative which was a huge pity.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Bradders » Mon Sep 24, 2018 2:29 pm

arsene wengers coat wrote:We drew 18 last season. Only Morecambe drew more and the finished just above the trap door.

The draws were our undoing. The last 3 managers have all suffered from the same problems regardless of budget formation or football philosophy.

I dare say under Murray we were more clinical Infront of goal, given that we rarely ventured into the opposition's half. At the moment we seem to be able to create chances but can't finish or hold on to a lead.

Six of those 18 draws were under Flitcroft, so I don't see how you can blame Evans for them. Your point was that Evans' team drew too many matches. Perhaps there were still a couple too many, but in the end we were just off automatic promotion so I don't see it as a big problem. The five draws this season are a cause for concern, but as we saw last season they don't mean that promotion is out of the question if the team improves only a little.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby MTFCMusings » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:02 pm

Every game I have been to this season, we have created enough chances to win the game, so the philosophy is not the problem, the finishing is. Whoever the manager was, they cannot be blamed for poor finishing.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Conker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:07 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:Every game I have been to this season, we have created enough chances to win the game, so the philosophy is not the problem, the finishing is. Whoever the manager was, they cannot be blamed for poor finishing.


That's a ridiculously simplistic way to look at it mate, I hope DF does not feel the same way.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Sneag » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:59 pm

MTFCMusings wrote:Every game I have been to this season, we have created enough chances to win the game, so the philosophy is not the problem, the finishing is. Whoever the manager was, they cannot be blamed for poor finishing.


Perhaps if we attacked for 90minutes instead of 60minutes we might score that all important 2nd goal.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby robeyre » Mon Sep 24, 2018 4:12 pm

ST4GS wrote:
Stag95 wrote:Murray could clearly pick a player but he was the most negative manager I can ever remember at the club.
The home defeat to Bristol Rovers when we dominated was a watershed. After that game Murray went ultra negative which was a huge pity.


My feelings exactly. I think he lost a faith in the players and system on that one day. Like you say a huge pity
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby MutinyOnTheCounty » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:01 pm

Sneag wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:Every game I have been to this season, we have created enough chances to win the game, so the philosophy is not the problem, the finishing is. Whoever the manager was, they cannot be blamed for poor finishing.


Perhaps if we attacked for 90minutes instead of 60minutes we might score that all important 2nd goal.


True Sneagy, although if we'd put away our chances earlier in those 60 mins we'd be 2 or 3-0 up by then and out of sight. Given how many chances the team creates, that should be feasible, at least in some games? That would negate some of the last 20 mins negativity.

Law of averages would perhaps suggest we'd have a couple more victories if we'd been more clinical, and I doubt we'd have half the reverb on here. Even so, I do agree we need a killer instinct to get a late winner, but I recall it also being true this time last year...
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby arsene wengers coat » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:26 am

On the pitch I don't think we've come that far since Murray left, pretty sideways passes and Scottsman's bluster aside. Points win prizes...
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby The One » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:09 am

MutinyOnTheCounty wrote:
Sneag wrote:
MTFCMusings wrote:Every game I have been to this season, we have created enough chances to win the game, so the philosophy is not the problem, the finishing is. Whoever the manager was, they cannot be blamed for poor finishing.


Perhaps if we attacked for 90minutes instead of 60minutes we might score that all important 2nd goal.


True Sneagy, although if we'd put away our chances earlier in those 60 mins we'd be 2 or 3-0 up by then and out of sight. Given how many chances the team creates, that should be feasible, at least in some games? That would negate some of the last 20 mins negativity.

Law of averages would perhaps suggest we'd have a couple more victories if we'd been more clinical, and I doubt we'd have half the reverb on here. Even so, I do agree we need a killer instinct to get a late winner, but I recall it also being true this time last year...


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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Spiritater » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:41 am

arsene wengers coat wrote:On the pitch I don't think we've come that far since Murray left, pretty sideways passes and Scottsman's bluster aside. Points win prizes...


Just amazes me how folks attitudes change no matter what style we play.
Before, when under Cox and we were winning and playing direct folk'd say, 'I'd sooner watch us get beat playing attractive footy than watch this'.
Now they're watching us play attractive footy (for part of a game) and getting little out of it they still moan.
Winning football games is all that matters, no matter how it's done.
Seems the Cowleys at Lincoln have it right. Fast pacey direct stuff. Is it particulary pleasing on the eye? No

Do the supporters go home happy most games? Yes

Yes we'd like to be slicker than Man City, but it's Lge 2 and to get out you've just got to win games no matter what style.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby Amber Andy » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:10 am

Spiritater wrote:
arsene wengers coat wrote:On the pitch I don't think we've come that far since Murray left, pretty sideways passes and Scottsman's bluster aside. Points win prizes...


Just amazes me how folks attitudes change no matter what style we play.
Before, when under Cox and we were winning and playing direct folk'd say, 'I'd sooner watch us get beat playing attractive footy than watch this'.
Now they're watching us play attractive footy (for part of a game) and getting little out of it they still moan.
Winning football games is all that matters, no matter how it's done.
Seems the Cowleys at Lincoln have it right. Fast pacey direct stuff. Is it particulary pleasing on the eye? No

Do the supporters go home happy most games? Yes

Yes we'd like to be slicker than Man City, but it's Lge 2 and to get out you've just got to win games no matter what style.
In other words whoever is manager it's impossible to please all of the fans all of the time.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby abc » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:37 pm

Spiritater wrote:
arsene wengers coat wrote:On the pitch I don't think we've come that far since Murray left, pretty sideways passes and Scottsman's bluster aside. Points win prizes...


Just amazes me how folks attitudes change no matter what style we play.
Before, when under Cox and we were winning and playing direct folk'd say, 'I'd sooner watch us get beat playing attractive footy than watch this'.
Now they're watching us play attractive footy (for part of a game) and getting little out of it they still moan.
Winning football games is all that matters, no matter how it's done.
Seems the Cowleys at Lincoln have it right. Fast pacey direct stuff. Is it particulary pleasing on the eye? No

Do the supporters go home happy most games? Yes

Yes we'd like to be slicker than Man City, but it's Lge 2 and to get out you've just got to win games no matter what style.


Good post, like you say it's the fourth division and some fans as well as Flipflop should adjust accordingly.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby gazza1988 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:42 pm

All we need now is more clinical finishing. Put away 1 chance in each of the games we didn't win in and we would be unbeaten and top of the league. I am aware we haven't done that. It's a very fine margin. We've had teams in the past who created little and scored little. There were debates on here whether islt was a midfield problem or a striker problem. Pretty much all of us know its a finishing problem. We are close to being that side teams fear.
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Re: Murray, Evans and Flitcroft

Postby DogsDoDahs » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:44 pm

And you can bank on the fact Cowley will NOT start a home game with just one striker on the pitch and expect to score killer goals to win a game because that rocket science
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